 2021-09-25 04:18:15
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Post #1
折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
 kurtyang04
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折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 为了保留 历史重要信息 ，开这贴 PaddleWise Discussion on Folding Kayak Rescues If the Aerius to which you refer is a double (Aerius II), then very little technique is required in most rescue situations (but practice is, of course, no less than prudent in any case!!): a) the boat is unlikely to capsize in the first place b) a swimmer will have little trouble in just climbing back in over the side -- in really terrible conditions climbing back in over the bow or stern (beware of rudder, if fitted) may be more appropriate, for one thing because it'll turn the boat into the wind / waves c) a self rescue in a double folder like the Aerius II is a cinch if there is already a crew of two, one paddler steadies while the other climbs in; if the boat is paddled solo, then a steadying hand by another paddler might be nice From your description below, the Folbot in question is a single. Most Folbot models are particularly stable and again very little assistance should be required for a reentry. In both cases bailing the boat out is easy due to the relatively large open cockpit and stability of the hull shape. Most important: Make sure that there is sufficient floatation in the boats since there are no bulkheads. It is good practice to fill as much of the boat as possible if conditions are so severe that even a folding boat is at all likely to capsize. The full length sponsons on most folding boats are a good start, but it is important to reduce the area of free water surface sloshing around in the wide open spaces of the hull to increase stability of a partially flooded boat in waves. (My only involuntary capsize in a folder in 30 years occurred in surf in a double when we did not heed my own advice about floatation AND did not bother to pump the bilges, which were partially filled from the trip out: Water pooled in the bow and "downslope" side of the boat in a breaker and the ensuing broach became uncontrollable.) Draining other boats by dragging them over the deck of a folder is the only thing that I can think of that would have to be approached with some forethought and care: Drain the boat as much as possible before dragging it out of the water and try to position the second boat in such a way that it rests over a frame (sometimes termed rib or cross-frame) to avoid excessive loads on the central deck stringer. Folders are ideal rescue vehicles to assist other kayaks due to their stability. There are exceptions to the above: Feathercraft Khatsalanos behave and perform very much like most so-called hard shell seakayaks and then the same rules apply as for the latter, of course. Chuck, I would suggest that you put in a (VERY) wet mixed practice session with the folders and the hard shells and just play through different scenarios. Post pictures!! :-))) The joining of forces of folders and non-folders sounds like a great set-up and is a recipe for fun and safe trips. Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn |
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2021-09-25 04:19:10
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Post #2
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:35:25 +1000 From: PJ Rattenbury Subject: [Paddlewise] Folding Kayak Rescues I reply: As a Klepper paddler who regularly and almost exclusively keeps company with the hardshell brigade I would suggest the following points: # A folding kayaker can rescue herself/himself as efficiently as a hardshell operator who presumably has a reliable roll. This only occurs if the folding kayaker regularly practices self rescue techniques. If they are not willing to demonstrate this, I would not paddle with them. # This is because the inherent stability of the folding kayaks you mention, means their paddlers may NOT regularly practice self rescue. # A reasonably skilled folding kayaker can be an asset on a trip. Her/his kayak makes a relatively stable platform on which to base assisted rescues. If you run to a buddy system in your club on the water, it would pay to have the foldable/hardshell buddies practice assisted rescues. Their boats can have quite disparate behavior upside down, and/or partially waterlogged. # Amen to the advice on reducing volume, either with gear, or floatation bags. # You seem to indicate a double Klepper is paddled solo. That's a lot of kayak to manoeuvre in a blow, even for a strong paddler. I would be reluctant as a trip leader to let that one through. # If the foldables don't carry electric pumps, [ actually even if they do!] I would personally check on the bail-out equipment of the foldables. Remember, even if they carry floatation bags and gear, these kayaks can still ship an awful lot of water without a seasock. # I would be checking on what sort of spraydeck/skirt arrangement they have, not only for seaworthiness, but also for protection from hypothermia. Big open cockpits can result in cold kayakers, particularly in cold rain. [ In my neck of the woods, sunburn to the legs is a worry.] # As far as group spread goes, foldables are not necessarily the slow coaches, so in my club at least, there are no on-the-water instructions peculiar to folding kayakers. # If your foldables are going to be assembled at put-ins, it might be helpful for group harmony to suggest their owners arrive early enough to get their boat ready, especially on day trips. Again, this depends on the skill of the folding kayaker , ie, their assembly times. # In the hands of folks who know their boats and skills, I believe foldables have a significant degree of survivability. I speak for the Klepper, which I know. I would describe this as 'built-in redundancy'. The only caveat is big surf, but I guess you get short, steep, breaking and dumping seas where you are. Hopes this helps! Peter Rattenbury, Wollongong, Australia. |
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2021-09-25 04:19:34
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Post #3
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 13:00:47 +1000 From: PJ Rattenbury Subject: [Paddlewise] Foldable Rescues Hi Ralph H : I have no particular 'downunder' techniques at self rescue. My practice is invariably the 'cowboy' rescue. I like its simplicity! No fussing with paddlefloat or stirrup set ups. The boat flips upright easily, even unloaded. I can be back in the boat literally in seconds [ with a little boost of adrenalin!] I am 56 years old, by the way, no spring chicken, but with a healthy respect for the sea which comes from 45 years plus mucking about in various boats. The key is to practice in varying weather and sea conditions and with varying loads. In a decent sort of sea, which presumably capsizes you in the first place, the boat is quite a different beast, as you know! In these realistic conditions, the Klepper is usually half swamped, with seas washing into the boat. Sprayskirt on, electric pump on, both hands engaged in paddling into the sea. I have a 800gph pump which provides the capacity needed for a large volume boat. I carry a one gallon collapsible bucket, and the standard vertically operated handpump as backup. I spoke about inbuilt redundancy before. I also practice paddling the boat totally swamped. This is, the Klepper is manageable [except in surf] fully 'waterlogged', which has earned it U-boat status in my club! This implies integrity of sponsons [ the ones that come with the boat!] and floatation bags. This is a fun thing to do, unless it is freezing! and you learn what it is like to paddle a boat with about six hundred pounds of water moving along with you! Interestingly, I have found the Klepper to be as stable UPSIDE down, as right side up! Again, useful knowledge in survival. May be other boats have similar characteristics. There is a helluva difference between practising rescue techniques, be they a roll up, re-enter and roll, or cowboy , in a decent sort of sea state, and in the swimming pool like conditions I see lots of folks do. I also carry surf fins, in the event of having to swim the boat in through surf, and I tether myself to the boat when paddling and/or sailing solo. So dominant is hardshell technique that in my club at least, one is NOT qualified as a sea going kayaker unless one can demonstrate a reliable roll. This implies a boat of Inuit heritage, ie designed to roll. I just like the idea of SURVIVING, I don't care how! Just a quick word on group rescue. The flavor of the month here is for the rescuer to help right the rescuee's boat; have the rescuee hold on to her/his boat near the cockpit, rescuer manoevre's her/his boat alongside, facing the rescuee, and the rescuee then uses the buoyancy/stability of both boats to swing herself/himself back into her/his cockpit. I do notice a strange reluctance among hardshell kayakers to engage in realistic gelcoat-crunching across the deck T rescues and the like! Hope you find the above interesting. That's my two cents worth. Regards PeterR |
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2021-09-25 04:20:23
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Post #4
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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PaddleWise Discussion on Floatation The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission. Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:04:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Darian Dunn Subject: [Paddlewise] Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kayak Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kayak I think it is time to buy some additional flotation for my kayak. On a recent trip I ended up with a boat full of water. At that point I found the boat had “equal buoyancy”. It didn’t sink but it didn’t float either. Can someone recommend where and what bags I should purchase? Thanks Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:26:44 -0700 From: "Mattson, Timothy G" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kaya k I hate sea condoms (also known as sea socks) so I am a "float bag" fanatic with my folding boat. I used to use standard kayak float bags to fill up the whole boat (other than the cockpit --- I have to sit somrwhere). It took six bags to do it, and tying each one of them to the frame was a pain in the posterior, but I wouldn't have it any other way. I like my boat to have so much flotation that I can safely paddle it when its flooded with as much water as it can hold. Now I get the same float bag coverage with 4 feathercraft bags. I use their standard large bow and stern bags and their more rectagular shaped mid section float bags (that's not the official name, but it gets the idea across). These are very expensive float bags. They work well, however, and in the final analysis, that whats most important. Tying them in is still a pain. I am going to experiment with making netting from nylon webing and creating "webbing bulkheads". These would fit right in front of my feet and just behind the seat. Water would pass though the netting, but the float bags and other dry bags wont. I'm all thumbs when it comes to building anything, but stiching webing into two loose nets should even fit my meager skills. - --Tim Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:10:55 -0700 From: rdiaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak floatation in a Nautiraid Grand Raid kayak No folding kayak should be paddled without additional flotation. The sponsons will do exactly what you found out they will do, i.e. keep the boat afloat and awash. I have a photo in my book of a couple in exactly that predicament in a double Klepper. I wanted to hammer the message home, but I still find people who look at the photo and don't realize it could be them. Any standard set of air bags from any of several manufacturers will do. I use Perception standard sea kayak float bags but others are out there too. You want to fill the under deck area as much as possible. Don't forget, no matter what float bags you use, to run some straps across the cross rib at the back of the cockpit in order to prevent the air bag from floating out in a capsize and do something similar to keep the flotation bag in the bow from coming out. You should also add airbags in plastic sea kayaks, bulkheads or no bulkheads. They are subject to leaks or popping and the supposedly watertight compartments will then flood in a capsize. Even if the bulkheads have not shown any sign of leaks, the pressure of a flooded cockpit could pop the bulkheads and complicate your situation. ralph diaz Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:10:28 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Nearly Fatal Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > > Exactly what does "built-in floatation" mean. I had always thought that > statement meant that the boat gunnels would be above the surface. It does > not. The boat was floating, but it was submerged. Let me reemphasize, it > did not sink to the bottom, it floated just below the surface. Personally, > I consider that misleading, but I am sure the manufacturer does not. It > boils down to interruptation. One possible (cheap) solution would be to add > 4 tie-downs in the bow and stern to tie in float bags. But how do we (the > user segment) get them (the manufacturers)to do that? > > Debs To my knowledge the term means that the boat won't sink to Davey Jones Locker, i.e. it will float in some retrievable fashion at the surface, more or less. It doesn't mean that it will float with freeboard if the average weight number of paddlers (single or double) are sitting in it. So, while it is a correct statement it is misleading in that people can easily make the assumption that it will float fully flooded with them in it and still be usable or be able to be pumped. It can't. Cockpits will be submerged so part or all of the coaming will be underwater and therefore no amount of pumping could empty it. All you have to do to establish just how effective built-in flotation is is just to look at the boat. If the flotation is just thicker walls on the perimeter of the boat that is filled with something bouyant, you can see that it would not be sufficient to create freeboard were the boat to be filled with water. I have been known to get pretty worked up on this regarding folding kayaks, none of which will float with sufficient freeboard for emptying out if the paddlers rely on the built in sponsons alone. I also clearly stated this in my book, and to underline this, I included a photo of a couple (who were Twiggy and Woody Allen size) in a double Klepper with just the sponsons inflated and no flotation bags (page 104). Their boat had half the cockpit submerged and would have been impossible to empty with them in it. On second thought, perhaps I should have used Jackie Gleason size paddlers as they would have displaced more water and of less weight than the water they replaced; and therefore provide some more bouyancy :-) But that is counter-intuitive and so thinner people looked better to illustrate the point. ralph -- Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:11:02 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rescuing a swamped Old Town Loon (was Nearly Fatal) Bob Volin wrote: > > Hi Jan.. > Hope you don't mind my posting this to the list instead of staying > back-channel. > > The situation you describe is indeed difficult. With no one else around, > I'd imagine that the best course would be as follows. > > Right the boat without trying to empty it, since it will be impossible to > lift in this condition. There was an earlier postiong that had some outfitter saying to someone that you cannot self-rescue in a double. I was meaning to answer that one and perhaps can do so via comments on this post. First, of all doubles are not difficult to self-rescue in. It has been done for 50 years in double Kleppers with excellent results if the paddlers know how. I would differ with the point about not trying to empty out first. You can get an amazing amount of water out of a swamped double. Leave it upside down, and have the heaviest of the two paddlers crawl up on the stern. This will raise the bow and water will come pouring out. Another routine is to go under the upside down boat (this is something that Bill Lozano was big on when Atlantic Kayak Tours was strictly folding kayaks, mainly doubles). It is a routine borrowed from righting canoes. The two paddlers get underneath and almost invariably they will find an air pocket there to breath and relax a few seconds in the relative quiet (it is called the zone of silence among canoeists). Get themselves composed and agreed on which way to turn the double right side up, they first rock it a bit to break some of the water's adhesion to the inside walls of the kayak, then flip the boat. It will then be rightside up and largely emptied. So do try to empty it first. Another trick that works for a quick partial emptying out, but only in a folding kayak is to take advantage of the bouyancy of the air sponsons. If you can get the boat up on its side (this works better in an assisted rescue but doable in a solo rescue), do so. The boat will rise quite a bit on the lowest sponson and water will come cascading out of the cockpit. > With one swimmer (the one who paddles in front) > holding on to one side of the boat to steady it, the rear-seat paddler > climbs up and into the boat in the usual way. This might be a little easier > than usual, since the boat will be very low in the water. Since you use the > word family, I'll assume we have a child here in addition to two paddlers. > Next, the child is helped aboard while the first paddler stabilizes from > outside and the second paddler stabilizes with the paddle and/or helps to > pull in the child. A paddle float will be VERY handy here! Next, the > rear-seat paddler stabilizes the boat using the paddle (with float, > hopefully) while the first paddler comes in. Generally in a rescue of a double, you want to get the rear person in first as Bob suggests as they then are in a position to control the rudder (most doubles are ruddered). This is handy for keeping the boat pointed into any seas or wind while getting in the second person in. You can come in from one side as Bob explains while the other person holds the other side. Or the boat can be held surprisingly steady with one person hugging the bow, albeit this latter works better in a folding kayak. The second person can come in the way Bob suggests or crawl in from the front bow, a longish trip but easier on the rear person's bracing skills. When crawling along the bow, keep both feet in the water as this will act as virtual outriggers. > If there is bailing equipment on board, now's the time to use it. Bailing out a fully swamped double boat, even one with sizable flotation bags in the bow and stern, is a difficult task. Try some of the quick emptying tactics mentioned earlier in this post as it will get rid of at least a third if not most of the water. None of this double kayak rescue stuff is new. I did a whole chapter on it in the FK book specifically because most folding kayaks tend to be doubles. I have not seen much in other sea kayak manuals about doubles. They are the threadbare stepchild of the glamourous world of sea kayaking where people prefer singles and frown on doubles. |
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2021-09-25 04:22:18
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Post #5
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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PaddleWise Discussion on Sprayskirts The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission. Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:49:33 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt PJ Rattenbury wrote: > Hi All, Can anyone offer any real-life comments on how these stack up? I > believe they have been on the US market for some time now. Comment from > other Klepper owners would be particularly welcome, as that is my > application. Re-entry and roll effectiveness is therefore not a factor, > but how do the skirts and zippers stand up in surf and big water, I don't know this particular skirt but Kleppers have had zippered sprayskirts. I don't know if they still do. These were special-order military ones that cost a bundle because they employed a waterproof zipper. I never saw a particular advantage in them since it is so easy to pop a skirt and get at what you need. The downside for the zippered sprayskirt, in addition to cost, are/were: added weight (if you are carrying a folding kayak every ounce adds to your burden); susceptible to getting sand in the zippered teeth; maintenance of the zipper. ralph From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:48:51 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt Pouch currently has a zippered version spraydeck for the double cockpit (non-military, the Swedish commandos prefer the heavy duty three piece version: spray deck plus two spray skirts). Individual zippers run from the center of the front top edge of each funnel to about the knees of the paddler. The zippers are no more difficult to maintain in this application than when they are used in dry suits. The weight is close to the traditional side opening funnel version of the Pouch spray deck. I have not had this particular spray deck out in dumping surf, but since even the ratty old button version used to stand up quite well (after a few modifications), I would not have second thoughts about the strength of the zippers in this respect. The upside to a center zippered spray deck / skirt is the ease of boarding and alighting from the boat. It also allows semi-permanent installation of the deck for improved surf security. Since you wear the "funnel" over the PFD, some people worry about taking on water. In my experience this is minimal. I agree with Ralph that for some people the advantages of the center zippers are not necessarily worth the added cost of the expensive zippers. My personal preference would be for a spray deck with integral coamings that accept a good spray skirt, but that's from the point of view of use on salt water. For extended river trips the zipper version certainly has a place. As to adding unnecessary weight: I don't like lugging boats, whether they be folded up or assembled, in any case. Why not just use a folding boat cart? Admittedly there are few with large enough wheels to make them fit for off-road trips, but they are not difficult to make yourself ... long winter nights are approaching fast :-). Ralph C. Hoehn Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:07:18 -0800 From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD At 11/14/2000 12:48 PM -0500, [Ralph C. Hoehn] wrote: > Since you wear the "funnel" over the PFD, some people worry about taking > on water. In my experience this is minimal. I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your PFD or over it? Fred From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:53:48 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD Fred, lest I have opened myself up to misunderstandings: The set-up, to which I was referring, applied only to double folding boats with a long open cockpit. A special deck / cover can be stretched over this cockpit. These covers come in two basic varieties. 1 - A deck with integral funnels (sometimes merely with drawstrings around the top; sometimes side-opening, closed with snap buttons; sometimes equipped with front (or side) zippers). 2 - A deck with integral hoops / coaming rings, to which you can attach "normal" spray skirts. In both cases the deck is more or less permanentely attached to the cockpit coaming of the boat, which necessitates some kind of opening arrangement for the funnels (or separate spray skirts) to allow the paddler to get in and out. Depending on the permanence of the deck to cockpit coaming, loading and unloading of gear may also need to be made through these funnels. You would not want to wear integral funnels under your PFD in case you need to wet exit (yes, it happens "even" with double folding kayaks). The likelihood of remaining attached when you would no longer want to be is too great. Remember that your PFD need to be relatively tight to be fully effective. Of course, if you use a set-up with detachable individual spray skirts you're back to your normal wisdom and wear it under your PFD, preferably cinched tight or rolled into your dry top/suit to provide a near perfect seal. I have in the past been in situations where I wore my funnel over the PFD, but wore a rain jacket over that. While the latter might have impaired my mobility, had I been forced into the water, I believe that I would have been able to get out of the boat with no problems at least. Also, having some air between my body and the rain jacket made for a comparatively comfortable paddling climate :-). I hope that I made this point clearer now. By the way, the original side opening Pouch spray deck version allowed the paddlers to unbutton completely the left side on both funnels. That in turn allowed one to roll up the amidships section of the deck and be left with an open cockpit once again bar the short pieces forward of the bow position and aft od the stern paddler. In case of rain or cold (as evening approached) or of excessive sun, the deck could be closed up again in a snap so to speak. When Pouch dropped this version in favor of something more substantial than the buttons, old time fans almost stormed the barricades in protest :-). There is a serious after sales market offering various deck and skirt arrangements for Pouch and Klepper doubles in Germany. Best regards, Ralph C. Hoehn Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:56:24 -0500 From: John Fereira Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Brooks Zippered Skirt - Now Over or Under PFD At 12:07 PM 11/14/00 -0800, Fred T, CA Kayaker wrote: > I hadn't thought of this in a while, but haven't seen it posted here. What > is the consensus or rule on is it best to wear your skirt tunnel under your > PFD or over it? Under it. I wouldn't even consider doing it any other way. From: Melissa Reese Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:29:14 -0800 Subject: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Though I've seen some people wear their tunnels over their PFDs (usually the suspender type nylon tunnel - with either neoprene or nylon deck), I've never figured out why they would do such a thing. I always wear first my insulating layer(s), then the sprayskirt/tunnel, then drytop or paddling jacket, then PFD on top of everything. Or - when wearing a full drysuit - I still wear the PFD *over* the sprayskirt/tunnel. Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do otherwise. Melissa From: "Whyte, David" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:31:54 +1100 I would agree with Melissa, I can't see any benefit in wearing your tunnel over the PFD plus I imagine it would let water into the cockpit when rolling or in heavy surf. Mine is so tight that there is no way I could put it over my PFD. David Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:19:28 +1100 From: PJ Rattenbury Subject: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts Thankyou for your responses, paddlewisers. There is a certain subjectivity about zippered skirts it seems. I already use one, but it is a nylon affair and difficult to make watertight, which prompts me to have a Brooks skirt made up. Hang the expense. I do like the ease of access which a centre zip provides as I carry everything, including water bottle, below deck. Sure it is easy to pop an unzippered skirt, but I believe the zip does not compromise the integrity of the skirt, that is, it can be quickly zipped open and shut. If I had to pop my skirt at sea, it would be a two-handed recovery operation and quite frankly not something I would like to do in big water unless it was vital. I have found another advantage in zippered skirts in my environment, which often means launching off beaches in surf. I can quickly hop in to the boat, with the skirt already fitted , zip up, and get paddling while 'unzippered' ! folk are still trying to fit their skirt. Another advantage, again related to my environment, is that a zippered skirt enables you to 'open' up the boat in hot conditions. It can be nice to have a bit of breeze through the cockpit. I recall a PaddleWise thread about a year ago when there was some query about the quality of Brooks skirts. I presume they have lifted their game? Cheers, Peter Rattenbury Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:39:10 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Melissa Reese wrote: > Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to > me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the > drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with > keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems > particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. > > I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do > otherwise. Years ago, Feathercraft's K-1 had an integral sprayskirt that was sewn into the deck. You really had to wear it outside your PFD otherwise you risked getting entrapped. It had a velcro closure that was meant to help you wet exit. It always seemed scary to me. Ralph Hoehn mentioned the spraydecks on Pouches (and Kleppers) which are one large piece covering the big opening of a double (and singles too). They open(ed) on one side with velcro or snaps. You definitely would not want THAT under your PFD. Another reason perhaps for wearing a sprayskirt outside the PFD might be in the folding kayaks I mentioned above even when the splash covering consists of a spray deck with two holes to which you attach sprayskirts (theirs or from the aftermarket). The decks are quite high. A shorter individual might find that the sprayskirt forces the PFD up above his/her nose. So for comfort the skirt might be best worn outside the PFD to prevent this ride-up. ralph diaz Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:46:37 -0800 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts PJ Rattenbury wrote: > Thankyou for your responses, paddlewisers. There is a certain > subjectivity about zippered skirts it seems. I already use one, but it is > a nylon affair and difficult to make watertight, which prompts me to have a > Brooks skirt made up. Hang the expense. [snip] > I recall a PaddleWise thread about a year ago when there was some query > about the quality of Brooks skirts. I presume they have lifted their game? Just bought a nylon tunnel/neo deck skirt from them. Seems comparable to Snapdragon, with some aspects of their design much better. Mine is not zippered, however. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR From: Melissa Reese Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:31:27 -0800 To the two Ralphs: I understand your points when speaking of the various folding boat spray deck arrangements - especially concerning the open cockpit doubles. I should have made it clearer that I was thinking about non-folding boat arrangements - and even some of the more recent version folding boats (Feathercraft Khat, K-1, etc.) with their "modern" coamings and single cockpit openings. I have however, seen people in "standard coaming" composite boats wearing their tunnels on the outside, and I still see this as peculiar - actually defeating the purpose of a potentially very secure skirt arrangement. I was really wondering why some of these people in particular would wear their skirts in this way. Melissa Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:34:56 -0800 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Melissa Reese wrote: [snip] > Frankly, wearing the skirt tunnel over a PFD makes no real sense to > me at all. I can think of many reasons to wear the tunnel under the > drytop, PFD, etc. Since using a sprayskirt has much to do with > keeping water out of the boat, wearing a tunnel on the outside seems > particularly counter-intuitive and awkward. > > I would be interested to hear an explanation of why anyone would do > otherwise. As a reformed tunnel-outside paddler, perhaps I can tell of my now-abandoned evil ways: The tunnel-outside crowd is seeking maximum ventilation, and is paddling in waters where only a little slop on the deck is likely. I quit a few years ago, and will not go back. I agree tunnel inside is better. If conditions are so mellow I do not need a sprayskirt, I either leave it off entirely or just loosen it from the coaming. And, yeah, I know the former can lead to problems if the water gets rough unexpectedly. Gotta get my thrills somehow! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:54:02 -0800 From: "Fred T, CA Kayaker" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Melissa and the other posts. An interesting arrangement on the folding boats. For normal (if there is such a thing) kayaks I agree on the tunnel under the PFD, but have seen pictures of folks paddling (may have been Derek Hutchinson or other British kayaker) with it over their PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a new skirt there was one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the inside front of the tunnel. I could see no way of putting anything of much size into, let alone filling it up and then putting under my PFD. When I asked the owner of the shop she commented that it was intended to be worn over the PFD. Interesting. I look forward to others weighing in on the subject. Fred From: "Matt Broze" Subject: RE:[Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:19:04 -0800 Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD. Sometimes I do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. I'm a much better skier than kayaker. I started skiing when I was two and kayaking not until 29 or 30. Two weeks after a hernia operation I went skiing again last winter. Needless to say, I wasn't pounding through the moguls much that day. So I toured some of the novice runs and kind of got into the swing of things, I tried to ski like a novice gone out of control but at slow speeds. My skiing partner, a ways behind, was in stitches but, some folks would try to help me out by shouting directions to correct my mistakes. One woman kept telling me to lean further forward so I kept leaning even further and further to the rear until I was so far back my boots were in the air most of the time and I was only skiing on my ski tails. I bought my skis and poles at Goodwill or a garage sale and my 20+ year old boots are haywired together so my equipment certainly didn't give me away (I don't have any new equipment). Much later I ran into someone at a party who worked at the ski area and had seen this run. While he correctly guessed that it was all a put-on on my part he wasn't totally sure and his buddy was sure I was for real, just a complete klutz. Being cantankerous, is not however why I wear my spraydeck outside sometimes, but I also will continue to do it that way no matter what others think (at least until the ACA gets a law passed to take away my paddling license if I don't tuck in my skirt). For me it is a situational thing. If I'm punching out through surf, paddling in the rain and cold or in potentially rough weather I put my spraydeck under my PFD for the shingle effect and the better seal at the waist that it provides that way. Dave is right about why a paddler in a non-folding kayak might put it outside though, ventilation. The chimney effect your body heat creates helps keep one cooled down some when paddling hard on a hot day in relatively calm waters. I can put out a lot of heat and I want to dump it as fast as I can without becoming unnecessarily salt covered (by using rotary cooling or throwing water over myself). Unlike Dave, I almost never paddle without the spraydeck on though. Even with the spraydeck wide open an Eskimo roll doesn't flood the cockpit that bad and a roll with a completely open cockpit would leave me having to pump out. I'm long waisted and like lower cockpits so the PFD riding up under my arms isn't a problem but it is for many short waisted folks. I like shoulder straps as they help keep the tube up and open when I'm using it that way. I like the buckle below the zipper on many PFD's too, for the same reason, I can unzip them but still have them on if I need it. The big opening at the top of my spraydeck also often allows me to reach things inside my cockpit (without a zipper or taking the skirt off) like the water bottle behind the seat. I'm sure some of you look at "spraydeck outside" as being a sign saying "unschooled novice" (much like I might view someone who holds the paddle upside down or flips the power face around to do a backstroke). Occasionally, I run into someone very experienced who just likes the way the paddle feels when it is upside down though. To each his own. Matt Broze From: [Joan Spinner] Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:16:48 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD > r. . . PFD and the last time that I went to purchase a new skirt there was > one make (British I think) with a giant pocket on the inside front of the > tunnel. I could see no way of putting anything of much size into, let alone > filling it up and then putting under my PFD. My Snapdragon skirt has a big inside pocket. I carry a hood in it during the cold months, in case I need it. I can get to the pocket by pulling the tunnel down, below my PFD. I also keep the wax for my gloves in there to keep it warm enough to spread when I'm using the gloves that need the tacky wax in serisouly cold conditions. Joan Spinner Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:30:14 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Matt Broze wrote: > Maybe you have seen me, I often wear my spraydeck over the PFD. > Sometimes I do things "wrong" just to be cantankerous. Matt Broze cantankerous? Perish the thought! :-) Actually this post heartens me to brave the scorn of know-it-all paddlers and wear my sprayskirt over my PFD on warm days in relatively calm situations as a way of keeping cooler. Perhaps all PaddleWisers should wear their sprayskirts that way as an identification sign to fellow subscribers. Of course, real PaddleWise paddlers are too expert to wear nylon skirts and there is no way they can get their tight neoprene skirt tunnels over their PFDs. ralph diaz Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:13:08 -0500 From: Greg Stamer Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Now Over or Under PFD Earlier in this thread someone wrote about water funneling into the kayak with the skirt worn over the PFD. As luck would have it, there is a Greenland roll to handle just this task (you didn't think that 30+ rolls were just for tricks did you ;^). Although the vast majority of Greenland kayakers that I have met do not wear PFDs, they do wear a sealskin sprayskirt for summer conditions that has a tall body tube, usually left open at the top for ventilation. The preferred roll for a capsize with this garment is to sweep from the stern to the bow in a low brace (Greenland reverse roll). This roll is very popular in Greenland and is reputed to allow the least amount of water to enter the kayak with an open skirt. I would imagine that this would also work well for the sprayskirt-over-the-PFD crowd. Note that although this roll is similar to a Steyr, the Steyr is performed as a high brace. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida From: HTERVORT@... Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:09:06 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Zippered Skirts / Over or Under Somehow, my earlier reply (under "Zippered Skirts"  seems to have been truncated and I feel the safety issue at hand is important enough to try again: In a message dated 11/14/00 4:24:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, Peter Rattenbury writes: > I do like the ease of access which a centre zip provides as I carry > everything, including water bottle, below deck. Sure it is easy to pop an > unzippered skirt, but I believe the zip does not compromise the integrity > of the skirt, that is, it can be quickly zipped open and shut. . > > I have found another advantage in zippered skirts in my environment, which > often means launching off beaches in surf. I can quickly hop in to the > boat, with the skirt already fitted , zip up, and get paddling while > 'unzippered' ! folk are still trying to fit their skirt. The voices of both reason and experience prompt me to caution against these practices. If you capsize with loose gear inside your cockpit, any object can wedge itself between your knees, legs or feet and the deck or seat and prevent you from getting out. The harder you try, the harder the object wedges and holds you, partially out of the cockpit but unable to get out. Other gear can migrate beneath you and make the scenario even worse. This is particularly serious if you capsize in the surf. (snip and flip) > If I had to pop my skirt at sea, it would be a two-handed recovery > operation and quite frankly not something I would like to do in big > water unless it was vital. I assume you would still remove the skirt from the coaming rather than try to open the tunnel. Trying to wet exit by unzipping the tunnel would seem to make the exit, dumping of water and reentry all harder than if you pop the skirt. > Another advantage, again related to my environment, is that a zippered > skirt enables you to 'open' up the boat in hot conditions. It can be nice > to have a bit of breeze through the cockpit. Or you can release the skirt -- in total, or front only, or back only. Under-the-PFD in So Cal, Harold |
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2021-09-25 04:24:39
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Post #6
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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A big thanks goes to Reinhold Weber for organizing this PaddleWise Discussion on Folding Kayaks VS Hardshell Kayaks for its inclusion on this web page. Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:31:32 MET-1MST From: "N.D. VAN LOO" Subject: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate Hi everyone, We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? Let us explain: We are new to kayaking and Paddlewise and considering to buy a kayak somewhere end of this year. The only experience in kayaking is limited to a couple of intructions at a local kayak club. When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on seakayaking and kayaking in general. To cut a long story short, our conclusion (for the moment) is: We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability. We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite. This conclusion when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate focussed on, stability, preformance, vurnerability to rocks, maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking friends had no experience at all with foldables. We are curious to learn from people that have experience with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us why we are so wrong? Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the smartest thing to do! Thanks in Advance, Diana and Nico-Dirk van Loo N.D. van Loo, Msc Dept. Cell Biology Medical Faculty Erasmus University Rotterdam P.O. 1738 3000 DR Rotterdam The Netherlands Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate N.D. VAN LOO wrote: > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? No. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I paddle both hardshells (I own 3 singles) and a folding double (Folbot) -- probably nowadays about equal time, but used to be almost exclusively hardshell. Ralph Diaz will preside as the priest of folders, so I'll just compare my experience. YMMV Folding doubles are: slower, roomier, more difficult to pack, more stable, require more maintenance, and are generally more costly. My Folbot Greenland II is all of the above except the last, I like hardshells for ease of maintenance, their speed, and their sleekness. I like my folder for its comfort, its HUGE cargo space, and the laid-back feeling of its enormous cockpit. I feel a little nervous when it works its way over swells, as it creaks and bends, but the things are durable. If I broke a frame piece or longeron, I believe a field repair would bne pretty simple. The same is not true for a major hole in a hardshell. Most folks decide to re-engineer the seats in folders. I did that on my Folbot. Folbot supposedly now sells a really good seat. I have, as well, re-engineered the seats on ALL my singles, because they did not fit well. You can not miss -- thery are all boats! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 From: Scott Ives Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate Diana and Nico, Folders are great boats, I've had four over the past 10 years and currently have an older Klepper. What your friends are trying to tell you is that the Klepper is not a really high performance boat. Think an older prop. plane vs. a jet. Both will get you there, but the trip will be a little choppier and slower in the folder. (I can hear Ralph disagreeing already!). Remember that if you stick with kayaking, you will experience a sharp learning curve. You may find that you desire faster, lighter kayaks soon - and then you will have already invested $5,000 (probably more now) on this boat. I would recommend you try some fast hardshell doubles before buying the Klepper. If you have the $$, it would be great to have one or two fast single hardshells AND the Klepper. Unfortunately most folks don't have such $$. The Klepper is a beautiful, functional boat and you won't go wrong buying it (very easy to resell). But just remember that you might want more speed and manuverability some day soon. Also, two singles allow you to get away from your better half every now and then! - Scott -- Scott Ives - avid father, husband, lawyer, photographer, kayaker, jet skier and Mustang Cobra convertible owner Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate From: Ralph Diaz N.D. VAN LOO wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > We have a simple question: Can anyone convince us that buying a > foldable double instead of a hardshell is a stupid and crazy idea? It _is_ a stupid and crazy idea. Why would you want to buy a folding kayak? It would just put you in a kayak with a long distinguished pedigree of thousands of expedition accomplishments on ever waterway and large body of water from the Arctic to Antarctica and everywhere in between. Who would want to paddle a kayak that is the choice of such dainty, sissy paddlers as special operations forces the world over including those in your native Netherlands? Need I go on? It is a crazy idea, folding kayaks are no good; they are not even kayaks, just, ugh, "boats". Give it up! :-) > When asking around to some " more experienced" kayakers, they all > told us about their favourite hardshell brands and their moste loved > types. At an outdoor exibition we saw a presentation of Klepper and > fell in love immediately. So we started to look around more carefully > at the internet and we read a couple of "standard books" on > seakayaking and kayaking in general. I know, I know. That is just my point. If experienced paddlers say that the hardshells are better you should listen to them. I remember when well before I decided to write a book on folding kayaks, I asked an author of one of those leading seakayaking books why he had said such bad things about folding kayaks. He fumbled for an answer and said that is what "people" say about the boats and it turns out he had never been in one. Folding kayaks are much too stable; that makes them boring in heavy seas and takes away from the enjoyment of having to use all your bracing and rolling skills to survive. They don't perform well except in rough conditions. All those major open water crossing over the last 90 years including the Atlantic were just flukes, meaning exceptions. Yes, they are extremely vulnerable despite being able to be dropped from helicopters fully loaded from 20 feet up and crashed against enemy shores in the blackness of night loaded with a half ton of gear. Maintenance: the instructions say that you should varnish each year; those who never varnish like me, will not get the 70 years of life out of the frames just perhaps 30 years because of our unwise non-maintenance laziness. And that Klepper, it takes all of 10 minutes for two people to make; that is so much longer than putting a hardshell kayak on a roofrack (assuming the rack is always in place), strapping and tying it down, then untying and removing it from the roof at your paddling place. You are much better off in a hardshell that doesn't require assembly at some point. So what if you can't ship the latter anywhere except by special arrangement and at enormous cost or it depreciates 50 per cent in value within the first two years. Folding kayaks go as ordinary baggage everywhere and keep their value far too well; who would want those things. > We are curious to learn from people that have experience > with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us > why we are so wrong? You are totally wrong. Afterall it is what people say. :-) :-) :-) ralph diaz p.s. Paddlewise, our Dutch friends who asked the questions know I am doing this tongue-in-cheek. -- Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 13:43:48 -0400 From: Leander Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate N.D. VAN LOO wrote: >We want a foldable because its larger safety margin and foldability. >We consider Feathercraft/Klepper/Nautiraid doubles. Among these the >Klepper expedition (red colour) is the favourite. Nice kayaks; we fell in love with folders after paddling them at a symposium a few years ago, and now own Kleppers, despite the initial higher investment in folding kayaks versus hardshells. We have a Klepper expedition double, which my spouse paddles solo, or we paddle double; we had the factory install the extra center seat position. We also own a Klepper 2000, which I paddle; the new two-bag system works great for me. We love the wood frames, canvas deck, sailing potential, and dog-carrying capacity. To my 2000 was added paddle pockets instead of paddle straps, extra D-rings and lifeline like the Quattro has, extra keel-strips to make the hull expedition-quality. I also had Mark Ekhart modify the spray-skirt attachment so that the Velcro would not be glued to my wood coaming; instead, that Velcro portion is on a tuck-under sprayskirt piece, to which the main portion attaches. Mark did a great job on this, and I recommend it to anyone who wants a quick-remove system without mucking up their coaming. >... when presented at the kayak club gave rise to quite >some resistance. Foldables were "not done". When we asked: "Could >you give any logical reason why a foldable is a bad idea?" The debate >focussed on, stability, preformance, vulnerability to rocks, >maintenance, folding/unfolding time etc. But most of our kayaking >friends had no experience at all with foldables. Their worries are mostly unfounded, as well as worthless since they have never been in a folding kayak; so all they know is hearsay from others with no experience. Not very useful. Our experience in Kleppers and hardshells is that Kleppers are more stable than hardshells, especially in rough water. Both are capable of capsizing, but hardshells are easier to capsize. Yes, Kleppers can be rolled; no, we can't roll them yet (the only sea kayak I can somewhat reliably roll is a Picolo). Both hardshells and folding kayaks require flotation bags; consider the air-filled tubes in folding kayaks as balance enhancers instead of flotation gear and get canoe end-bags to fill the Klepper bow and stern (kayak flotation bags are too small). Kleppers are not slow. The 2000 has phenomenal glide. The double moves well with two paddlers, and moves pretty well with just my spouse paddling(meaning he keeps up with the pack even when he is out of shape)...until we hit rough water, then both kayaks shoot ahead of everyone else, as we use forward strokes and they frantically brace to keep from capsizing. Maintenance is simple; we wash down our kayaks and all our gear with fresh water and let them dry. You can leave them assembled or put them in their bags, giving the option of car-topping like a hardshell, or keeping them safely inside your vehicle. We haven't varnished the wood or put 303 on the hull, but we may get to that sometime. So what about vulnerability to rocks? Well, you can crack and hole a hardshell, you can scrape or gouge its gel coat; you can also tear or hole a folding hull. We have never done any of those things, but we tend to baby our boats, whether hardshell or folding. We don't grind them onto the sand or rocks in takeoffs and landings, and we try to avoid barnacles. We did, however, get expedition hulls and extra keel strips because of the rugged terrain. Finally, folding and unfolding time. I can assemble the Klepper 2000 or the Klepper double in 10-15 minutes, taking my time. We can both assemble the Klepper double in 10-15 minutes, or my spouse can assemble it in 20-30 minutes slow-southern-time (grin) (sitting in a chair while assembling parts) or 15-20 minutes ambling time. Disassembly is equally easy, at 10 minutes more or less, depending upon how tired you are. >We are curious to learn from people that have experience >with both foldables and hardshells. Could any of them please tell us >why we are so wrong? You're wrong to let people who know nothing about folders talk you out of buying what you really want. We have never regretted our decision of going with Klepper. I did own a Feathercraft Khatsalano-S for awhile, which is a lovely craft, but takes far longer to assemble than I am willing to spend; 15 minutes is my maximum tolerance for assembly time. >Anyone of you is also free to explain why buying a foldable is the >smartest thing to do! You will love it. One recommendation, however, is do not get the Klepper paddles. Those paddles are awful, and the $90 per pair (two pair in a double) can be spent on better paddles, probably in the 230-250cm range, depending on who is in front/back, and how tall you are. Try before you buy. Initial investment is higher than for most doubles, but you will never need another kayak; you might add a sail rig in the future, then have a folding kayak/sailboat. If you plan to do that, then I suggest the newer larger sailing rudder assembly. Also, on a double, sometimes a rudder is helpful in cross-wind/current, but I would recommend learning to handle those things without a rudder, then you can use it when you feel lazy (without being endangered if it breaks, as all rudders are prone to do eventually). Hope this has helped. Ralph Diaz can tell you a lot more, and also advise you about the other folding kayaks. You might want to read his book "The Complete Folding Kayaker", which has 1994 prices, and doesn't have boats new since then, but the information is still quite valuable and valid. Hopefully, he'll be using his "Folding Kayaker Newsletter" articles to aid writing an updated second edition for his book...how about it Ralph...is in the works yet? Regards, Leander From: Peter Osman Subject: [Paddlewise] hardshell/foldable debate and the Klepper expedition Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 As a novice kayaker I was faced with a similar decision 6 months ago and decided to hire hardshells for use in quiet water and to buy a Klepper Aerius Expedition foldable for use at sea. Before the purchase I read Ralph's book cover to cover. Storability, transportability, safety, and the joy/ease of assembly were paramount in the decision. Some observations: Assembly:- It's very easy to put together, taking 1/2 to 3/4 hour both to assemble and to disassemble including adding:- flotation, compass, rudder, daytrip luggage, packing/unpacking the bags, drying the wooden components. Basic assembly with no accessories takes 15-20 minutes without rushing. Assembly is much more pleasant on grass than on sand. Strategic packing with two towels speeds packing the wooden components, which otherwise tend to tip about. I find assembly a very pleasant start to paddling but not everyone may feel this way. Performance:- The Klepper Aerius Expedition seems slower than about half the hardshell sea kayaks I come across except in moderate to heavy seas when it tends to keep up or overtake. (A hardshell owner in turbulent water once shouted behind me "look at that Klepper go" - it was great). If your group paddles fast in calm water you may struggle to keep up. The Klepper Aerius Expedition needs a fair bit of strength to maintain its top speed over long periods. Safety:- The Klepper Aerius is well known for its outstanding stability and seaworthiness. My local sea kayak club normally require the ability to eskimo roll a hardshell for higher grade trips. However, they are flexible and will probably allow an exemption for Aerius users. Clearly the need for good bracing and self rescue skills is still essential. Maintenance:- Allow about 1/2 an hour cleaning and stowage time at home (mainly rinsing with fresh water) and about 1 or 2 days to dry it out before packing it away. To dry the skin I support it on towels over 4 sawhorses under a veranda. Regular use of Klepper wax/303 UV protectant for the hull and fittings (particularly the seam which folds into the coaming groove) is highly desirable but only takes a few minutes. I'm also using 303 fabricguard on the deck on the advice of a friend who has used it regularly on his Klepper to protect against UV. Mild soap/detergent seems to remove the expensive 303 fabricguard so I'm now using fresh water only to clean the deck. I've not regretted the decision although its about the most expensive kayak I've heard of. When trying to keep up with faster paddlers I'm less than thankful. When in roughish water I'm very thankful. Good luck, Petero. From: [Ralph Diaz] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] kayak reviews and advice needed > dmccarty@... wrote: > > I have a Looksha IV and my wife has the IVs. Both are kevlar layups. > When we started looking into sea kayaks we started with plastic but after > much hmmming and hawing we slowing escalated to kevlar. One reason was > the limited lifetime on the plastic boats. I have taken out rental plastic > boats that suffered greatly from oil caning. They all suffered from one > degree or another. I just could not stand the thought of that happening to > my boat. It seemed to me that I was going to spend $2400 on two boats and > within a very short number of years I would be looking for a new boat. That > was to expensive for me. Hopefully others will comment on my impressions > of plastic boats. > > Another was weight. It is funny how polyethylene kayaks have this reputation for toughness that lures people into buying them (in addition to cheaper cost) but in point of fact they are not as durable as fiberglass or kevlar composites. Plastic boats suffer from: oilcanning from being on roofracks or resting uneveningly on a beach; scars and strands of plastic that hang from the bottom from dragging them around that also slows them down on the water; and the relatively short lifespan expected of them before they get too brittle to repair easily are all points that get lost in the illusion of indestructability. Then there is the weight factor. They weigh a ton. Take a look at Sea Kayaker review of kayaks. The manufacturer says his boat weighs 55 lb. SK mag puts it on the scale and it is 66 lb.!!! And, at least in some of the plastic boats, a lot of the weight for some reason (the way the molds work, whatever) is at the ends; so when you pick one up and you don't have it perfectly horizontal, you start getting a pendulum effect making the carry even more difficult in addition to sheer weight. While kevlar is expensive, you can certainly shop around. Some companies offer their kevlar and fiberglass boats at a lot cheaper price than others. Take SEDA for example. Prices on them tend to run as much as $500 cheaper than their counterparts coming from other manufacturers. There may be a model from SEDA that suits you. Then there is Dan McCarthy's further comment (which I snipped) about going around to demo days and symposiums. Often these exhibits offer boats at 10-20% off list price which could make a difference or help you buy a nice paddle. Then, if you can wait until the end of the season, many kayak stores offer significant end of season sales to reduce their inventory and later bring in next year's models. I know around here in the NY area, some of the shops drop prices $800 or more on a $2,000 or so boat, perhaps not of the greatest colors but a nice savings. Also, some outfitters do sell off parts of their fleet at the end of the season and you can pick up a good fiberglass boat then at pretty close to list price. Unfortunately, if you are looking for a folding kayak, there are seldom any end of season sales as people will still buy them in winter for travel to warmer climes and dealers often are not stuck with just a local market pool as they can ship 'em by UPS anywhere. Only Folbot offers any such sales in the Fall. ralph diaz -- Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:47:16 -0700 From: "Mattson, Timothy G" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] kayak reviews and advice needed It is funny how polyethylene kayaks have this reputation for toughness that lures people into buying them (in addition to cheaper cost) but in point of fact they are not as durable as fiberglass or kevlar composites. Plastic boats don't last as long, but they are tough. I hit rocks in my plastic boat and get a little scratch. Due to the flex in the material, though, I don't ge a depressing gash as I would wiith my folding boat or my Kevlar boat. Also, there is the psychological factor associated with the cost. I paid around $900 for my Plastic Sea Lion. So it just doesn't bug me as much when I slam into a barnicle covered rock in that boat as opposed to my $3800 Khatsalano. I think its this psychological factor that has earned plastic boats their tough reputation. They are considered tougher because their owners are more willing to abuse them around rocks. I will always keep a ready-to-abuse plastic boat in my fleet so when I know I'm going to bash into lots of rocks -- either in shallow rivers or rugged coast lines -- I have a boat to use without suffering mental anguish. --Tim " proud owner of a two ton plastic Sea Lion" Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:43:21 -0700 From: [Ralph Diaz] Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Proud to Paddle Plastic Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: > > You are not alone! > > Debbie Reeves > Owner of fiberglass, wood, and yes, plastic kayaks Plastic is just fine and don't ever let anyone look down on you for what you paddle. One of the fastest and most reliable paddlers I ever met paddled a Chinook. He would go to symposiums, eye and try out all the fiberglass while considering what he might upgrade to one day. But for years he stayed with that Chinook and remained the best paddler around. The paddler maketh the boat not the boat maketh the paddler. There are however a lot of shortcomings to plastic that can't be overlooked: Weight--they tend to be about 8 to 10 pounds heavier than equivalent fiberglass. Portability--with lots of their weight at their very ends, plastic boats are harder to carry as a see-saw effect starts up if you get 'em slightly off balance in the carry. Deformity--they deform terribly to affect handling and speed. After a year no two kayaks of the same model will handle the same because of this. Longevity--they really don't last long, certainly no where near the useful life of a fiberglass kayak. Repairs--generally more difficult than in fiberglass. Leaky bulkheads--no matter what a manufacturer claims, bulkheads all leak, some more than others, but all leak. So I don't see the choice as a matter of prestige but rather practicality. Fiberglass gives you more than image. Plastic kayaks have an advantage in price and in there lies a danger. It is so easy to get one as an entry boat from a department store and go paddle forth without any knowledge of airbags, self-rescue, reading sea conditions etc. Sooner or later, we are going to start seeing statistics catch up to these paddlers and it won't be pretty. ralph diaz -- Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:48:36 -0700 From: [Ralph Diaz] Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] experience with folding seakayaks Hendrik Maroske wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I am looking for a folding seakayak that is in handling and speed > > comparable to hardshell boats. Are there people on this list with > > hands on experience in boats like the Feathercraft K1 or > > Khatsalano, or the longer single seat Nautiraids (greenlander 500). > > Or may be other alternatives? > > > > Greetings, > > > > Merijn > > > Hmmm, since nobody answered this, I take this as my turn: > > having built a few folding aluminum baidarkas, I don't think they > were in any respect similar to harsdhell boats. Although I wanted > each kayak to be comparable with hardshell kayaks and took > some pain to achive the best results, neither rigidity, nor > speed under paddle were as good. I am not certain what is the situation with the boats that Hendrik has hand crafted but there are certainly some commercially available folding kayaks that are no slouches in the speed department. The Feathercraft Khatsalano is generally recognized as a very fast boat with less than a half dozen non-racing commercially available hardshells being faster. Stepping down from the Khatsalano, the Feathercraft K-1 and some of the Nautiraids are certainly as fast as a lot of other hardshells. I think a lot of the image regarding folding kayak speed is one of thinking in terms of clunky doubles paddled by occasional paddlers in comparison to solo paddlers in hardshells. When it comes to the singles, the folding kayaks can be quite fast, length for length, with hardshells. > Anyway, you might want to look at something narrow and rigid; > I never saw anything in the market that was foldable and would > match at least my selfbuilts with regard to rigidity. They only > _do_ assemble a lot easier. I haven't seen these hand crafted folding kayaks but I can't imagine anything stiffer than the Nautiraid singles. If you pick one up by one end and shake it up and down, there is virtually no flex at all...i.e. they are incredibly rigid; their frames use more cross-ribs and stringers than do other folding kayaks and their external sponsons add lots of rigidity. Feathercrafts have a bit more flex to them. Folbots an incredible amount of flex. > One thing to consider is handling during rescue (-training). > I haven't seen any folding kayak that would match my desires in > this case. So I have equipped my recent folder with retractable > compass and hatchcover-mounted pump in order to survive at > least a TX-style rescue; also, I have lowered the deck beam to > help with rolling. The commercially available folding kayaks are regularly used in TX rescues with no damage; I've seen it done several times this summer with nothing happening by way of damage. I suppose if the boats were not carrying airbags to reduce the amount of water that gets inside in a capsize than perhaps some damage may result to deck bars, BUT no one should ever venture out in any folding kayak (even if using a sea sock) without air flotation bags over and above the sponsons that are normally built in. The same would be true for any hardshell that does not have bulkheads and for polyethylene kayaks whose bulkheads are generally suspect and prone to leak and pop if flooded in a capsize. The deck bars on folding kayaks can take punishment. I once had a very heavy fellow trip over while near my K-Light on dry land. He fell flat with all his weight on the bow deck right between two crossribs: unlike when sitting in water, the boat had no where to sink into to absorb the punishment (as it might in a TX rescue). The result: The top deck bar was ever so slightly bent at the point where it connected to another bar but did not need replacing or fixing. I shudder to think what would have happened with the deck of a kevlar boat. As for rolling, some folding kayaks roll okay; perhaps not as well as many hardshells, but they can be rolled. Ken Fink reports that he regularly teaches people how to roll using the K-Light. And I have never seen anyone who does have a good roll fail when getting into the single folding kayaks from Feathercraft, Nautiraid and Klepper. At worse a good roller cannot do his full array of rolls as he might in his own boat or slimmer boats but that also would be the case with some of the hardshells too, i.e. it would be difficult to do every type of roll in every hardshell single. BTW, I saw a double Klepper rolled the other day. I had heard of people doing it but two guys at the Boathouse decided to give it a try. They failed the first time; swam the Klepper back to the dock. Got their coordination straightened out and went out and did two effortless rolls in a row. ralph diaz -- Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 11:22:53 -0700 From: Shawn W. Baker Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Perfect Boat is Plastic! > As a longtime owner of plastic and hopeful upgrader to something else, I would > be interested in further comments along this thread on the relative merits > (durability, speed, whatever) of kevlar, carbon composites, and wood. Any > first-hand experience out there across those lines? Plastic is generally more resistant to abrasion and very large impacts. Fiberglass, carbon, kevlar, Spectra and wood/composite boats are generally lighter and stiffer. For example, a design that might weight 70 lbs. in plastic would weigh 50-55 lbs. in glass, 45-50 lbs. in wood, and 40-45 lbs. in Kevlar. Composite layups can vary according to how heavily they are designed--there are super-light boats that are easy to carry, but very fragile, and heavyweight glass boats that are probably tougher than most plastic boats. Colored gelcoats in composite boats are much more vibrant and glossy than typical rotomolded or blowmolded PE boats. Wood boats are downright gorgeous-- admittedly, though, I'm highly biased in that direction. Some plastic boats are designed somewhat around ease of molding. This is not always the case, but you'll probably notice a few more little intricacies of design in composite boats. Coleman canoes are an extreme example of boats designed for ease of manufacture and shipping, at the expense of performance. Composite boats are easier to modify and repair. Nothing really sticks to polyethylene. Wood kayaks, built well by someone else, are very, very expensive. Wood boats built by the owner are dirt cheap, but take a considerable labor/time investment, and some modest woodworking tools are required. Email me if you have any particular questions about wood kayaks. Happy deciding! Shawn ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ "Everything can be found at sea according to the spirit of your quest" -Joseph Conrad Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 12:22:53 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (Paddlewise) Plastic is Perfect!???????????????? not! > I however revert to the "ram it full speed up the beach to keep my feet > dry approach" once I have gotten a couple of scratches in the gelcoat > anyhow. If you are of the ram-the-beach school, there is nothing quite like a Folbot folding kayak for doing this. The bow and stern have a thick curved aluminum rail protecting them that runs from the tip of the boat and down and under to part way along the keel. The marks they make on sand and any rocks they hit looks like they were made by a plowshare. I often wonder how a Folbot would do for playing kayak polo against plastic and fiberglass boats. While Folbots don't turn that well and so would lack in agility, they would make a mash of any hardshell they hit with their killer ramming ends. I can see a Folbot on a kayak polo team acting like those legendary enforcers that the Boston Celtics use to employ to break arms and legs of opposing team stars. ralph diaz Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:45:41 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Perfect Boat is Plastic! Now Flex Kirk Olsen wrote: > > hmm, time to figure out how to trade hats. My paddling choices include > a skin/frame baidarka, and carbon fiber race surf ski. > > Skin/frame boats flex very differently than plastic boats. > With a skin/frame boat the boat will bend as it goes over waves. To me > this was the most dramatic the day I paddled with a friend, he was paddling > my VCP Pintail ('glass british heavy). We were paddling into a headwind with > 1 foot chop. The PinTail was riding up over each wave and crashing off the > top of each wave. My baidarka was cruising straight forward with the > waves traveling along the gunwales. With the boat flexing as it adjusted to > each oncoming wave. The baidarka was much faster than the pintail headed > into the waves. > > My current take on this is a rigid boat is going to be the fastest on a > flat water course - no flexing induced by the non-existant waves. In > waves I think a skin/frame boat will be faster because it adjusts to each > wave and less forward momentum is lost to the boat coming off of one wave > and pounding down off of the back of the wave. I am not certain it has to do with you observed but rather with some other phenomena. Back about 3 years ago, one of my readers, a physicist of some renown with some 150 patents to his name and voted to all kinds of lists such as Industry Week's Top 50 R&D Stars To Watch, etc., took a crack at it in an article for my newsletter. It is quite a detailed article that I would share with anyone who asks via back channels. The key point he makes is cited below in an excerpt. The phenomenon is phrased in terms of folding kayaks but would apply equally as well to any skin kayak such as Kirk's. >From Folding Kayaker Sept/Oct 1996, pp. 1-5 Scientific Look At Rough Water Drag For Folding Kayaks Vs. Hard-Shells "Flexible Skin In Action In chaotic seas, a folding kayak^Òs skin sections defined by its stringers and crossribs pump in and out like a drum head and destabilize laminar flow of water along the surface of the kayak (Handbook of Fluid Dynamics, ibid, page 11-30). The vibrating skin of a folding kayak is extremely effective in pushing the critical Reynolds number of the drag crisis down to lower Reynolds numbers. There also may be a small geometric effect from the less regular surface generated by the framing effect of stringers and cross ribs on the flexible-skin analogous to dimpling on a golf ball. This ^Ódimpling^Ô of the surface of the flexible-skin kayak also tends to lower the critical Reynolds number of the drag crisis. However, because of the large lateral size and small height of such ^Ódimples^Ô on a folding kayak, the destabilization effect due to this static morphology of the kayak skin is much less than for the dimpled golf ball. Of the two effects, we believe that the dynamic in-and-out motion of skin sections of the flexible skin kayak is the dominant one that causes the critical Reynolds number of the drag crisis to fall. Such in-and-out motion occurs readily in rough chaotic waters and is a common phenomenon that many of you have often exclaimed about, i.e. the feel of the water as it passes along the skin. For the drag crisis regime to cause a difference in drag between hard-shell and flexible-skin kayaks, the Reynolds number associated with kayak motion through water must be near the drag crisis regime. By one of those quirks of nature, it is." By now I am certain James Lofton is scratching his head saying to himself "What! My little ole Folbot is doing all that s**t?" Kinda my reaction too. :-) Anyway it is good reading. happy paddling, ralph diaz |
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2021-09-25 04:25:06
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Post #7
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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PaddleWise Discussion on Choosing a double or single folding kayak The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission. From: "Dr. Peter Rand" Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 1:19 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Just put a down payment on a folding kayak at a local boat show - the Klepper Aerius expedition (I was shocked that the Klepper rep had never heard of Ralph :-) I was planning to get a single, since my girlfriend never expressed the slightest interest in joining me for outings, but as I was filling out the paperwork she got visibly nervous and said well, maybe she would like to join me for outings after all. Oops... I need some advice! There are so many pros and cons to this issue. If I get the double, I'm sure I'll be using it frequently as a single, if I get a single, my girlfriend won't be able to join me for the occasional outing. (At least Ralph says "solo paddling is fine" in the Aerius II). The double is 8 kilos heavier than the single. Any thoughts (especially from couples)? Peter Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 01:48:52 -0800 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? You need advice about your relationship, not about boats. Anybody who had not expressed much interest in boating (even though you are avowedly avid), UNTIL confronted by a tangible threat to her control over you is more interested in managing the relationship than she is in boating. Buy the double. Your next girlfriend will be someone you meet on the water during the "detachment" phase of your current relationship. The two of you will love the Aerius, intensify your enamoration within it, and the first child will no doubt be named "Aerius." -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR no Dear Abby, but been there, done that! From: [Frank Fichtmüller] Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:44:42 +0100 Hi, Peter - coming into our new location I had a double Klepper and happily used it together with my wife. She just liked being taken around, paddling when *she* wanted. After (1) some occasional quarreling (mostly coordination of strokes) and - (2) besides this - myself most time being out without my wife I decides to buy a used single, too. And, since we have three kids (15/11/6 then) I had a 2nd single for my wife. So everything was there to paddle together - theoretically. For a while we still went paddling together - I liked it very much. But as my physical condition got more and more improved by practicing when I had some time (and my wife couldnt or wouldnt go) it became the longer the more frustrating for my wife. So now she is jogging (and says, she likes it much more to move herself this way), our kids interests have changed (19/15/11 now) and most time I am out alone. The double some time ago has been sold (but there is a new - really old from the 50ies - one waiting to be restored) and the 2nd single one will be sold soon. So what I learned: Murphys law ("What can go wrong will go wrong." works.Specially when you are not too sensitive as I seemed to have been considering what my wife really needed. - And it takes time to talk, to watch, lots of patience and waiting for one or the other if you really want to reach the same goal with your partner. And besides this: Interests may change, which (sometimes painfully) has to be respected. So after all I really wouldnt know to tell you what to do - except being sensitive towards what she really wants (paddle or spend some time near to you in a boat?) and be *very* patient. I´m not sure whether this helps - have a try. Best to both of you, Frank From: "Glenn Stauffer" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 08:36:03 -0500 Get the single. When your girlfriend feels like she might want to go along, rent a boat for her until she actually shows that she enjoys kayaking. I made the mistake of buying a bike once for a girlfriend who expressed interest after a long period of not being interested. That girlfriend is long gone and the bike still hangs from the rafters - it being too small for me or any companion that followed. Her interest in riding didn't get past the first ride with significant hills. There is nothing worse than paddling in a double anything with someone who really doesn't enjoy it. That is a sure way to stress any relationship - my ex-wife still brings up the fact that we never could manage paddling a canoe together which should have told us we probably couldn't manage a marriage together. Of course, buying a double kayak and testing the relationship thoroughly before marriage is a lot less stress and cheaper than a divorce. Girlfriends come and girlfriends go, but a good kayak is forever... From: [Sandy Kramer] Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:06:21 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Yeah, don't break up with the girlfriend. All that money for a double that you will probably use solo most of the time. There's an art to paddling double. You have to keep in synch so your paddles aren't clacking. Easier to paddle double with a rudder otherwise you go round and round in circles (blush). There was an article in Sea Kayaker about three (?) years ago on the cons of paddling double. Divorce, for example. Well, it wasn't quite that bad, but many couples have ended up buying two singles. Sandy Kramer (single!) From: "Philip Torrens" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:13:53 PST The question was whether to buy single kayaks or a double kayak. And the answer is: Yes. Buy both. I do most of my touring either solo or with others who want to paddle their own canoe (so to speak). So I have a solo for these trips. My wife is a fair-weather camper/kayaker, who also has some back problems, which means she cannot paddle continuously. Our double allows me to keep us both moving along, gondolier-style, even when she's taking a break from paddling. Result: no frustration on her part that I'm moving too fast or on mine that she's lagging behind. The double is also safer for the two of us: we cannot get separated, it's inherently more stable, and I can brace for both of us in beam seas (you can raft two singles up, but you cannot make progress this way, and I still don't think they'd be as stable as an aggressively braced double). One change I'm making as a result of reading "Deep Trouble" and comments from Matt B. on Paddlewise is outfitting both cockpits of the double with seasocks; Matt makes the point that the floodable volume of most double cockpits means the kayak would float too low in the water to have much chance of pumping out without reswamping. (I long ago rigged the double with holders for paddlefloats behind both cockpits and I carry two paddlefloats, two pumps, and a stirrup to allow my wife to step-ladder back into the boat.) Thanks Matt, pointing out this vital factor with doubles. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' From: "jalparker" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:56:02 -0500 We have thousands of miles on two tandem bicycles, and just started paddling a tandem kayak last year. Same concept..... teamwork! Once you get it down, it's great. You won't have to keep turning around to pick her up, if you happen to be the stronger paddler. And, in either case, it's like having two motors on your bike or in your kayak. We're almost fifty, and we get a kick out of putting a twenty-five year old hammerhead away on the tandem bike! We haven't done a lot of group kayak outings yet, but I have a feeling that the same can apply there as well. When paddling in sync, we move! Most certainly faster than our combined effort in singles. However, there is a saying with tandem bicycles. A tandem will drive your relationship in whatever direction it was already headed. For us, it has been positive, kayak and bicycles. I remember Dana Decker saying that the only reason he considered selling us the tandem kayak, was because we were tandem cyclists. He had not had good experiences with other couples. So maybe we're just weird! Anyway, good luck in your decision process. Al (& Heidi) Parker Tallahassee, FL Prijon Odyssee Cannondale MT3000 Cannondale RT1000 From: "Jim Bielecki" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling a Double Folder Solo Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 20:22:14 -0500 > From: "Dr. Peter Rand" > > In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine" > with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I > can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all > seem to have movable seats. Is this right? > > For those who regularly paddle a double on their own, I'd like to hear > your thoughts. I have both a Klepper Aerius II and a Klepper Aerius 2000 mini-single. The A-II with solo seat was purchased brand new in 1990, well before Klepper made the movable seat a standard feature. I bought a used Aerius 2000 last year. As to the boat I pick for solo paddling, it all depends on the type of paddling I wish to do. The A-II excels in big water, meaning Lake Superior, Lake Huron and Lake Michigan, and its cargo capacity can't be beat for times when I feel like going on a solo camping trip. The Aerius 2000 sees most of its use on the hundreds of small inland lakes that dot the northern Michigan landscape. I love its one bag portability, light weight, speed and glide. I'm fortunate to have a choice and, believe it or not, can't imagine going back to one boat. But if push came to shove, I'd sell the Aerius 2000 and keep the A-II. The double has so much versatility and just does too many things for me to ever consider selling it. Jim Bielecki Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:49:42 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folders: single, double, girlfriend? Dr. Peter Rand wrote: > Thanks to everybody who wrote me with comments and suggestions. It seems the > more performance-oriented paddlers would favor a single, while sociable paddlers > recommend a double. More affluent paddlers recommend I get two singles or a > single and a double, and one person recommended I get a new girlfriend. I read all the suggestions with amusement. I was surprised to see that no one suggested getting a _second_ girlfriend, which is not exactly as facetious as it may sound. I know paddlers who have companion paddlers of the opposite sex with no sex involved just sea kayaking. > I guess I tend to fall more in the group of sociable paddlers, since I have > no athletic ambitions with the kayak, but rather hope to get out in nature, > enjoy the good weather, have picnics, etc. I live in Vienna, Austria, and the > Danube river is only about 10 minutes away by subway. Within an hour's drive > there are also numerous lakes and other rivers. With the help of the kayak I > hope to discover and enjoy these various bodies of water. Mostly alone, but > occasionally with my girlfriend or a larger touring group. Doctor, I have studied your case carefully, run some clinical tests and sought some outside opinion as well. The Klepper double would be perfect for you since you are not out to win any races when paddling solo and you do hope that your girlfriend will join you sometimes or often, whatever the dice read. Paddling doubles is an interesting litmus test of a person or 2 persons feelings toward society and their own place in it. A person who wishes to share experiences and enthusiasm with others and who feels that helping others is a higher calling than his/her own self-interest is likely to take to a double like a duck to water. A person who feels everybody has to watch out for themselves and is responsible for themselves and who feels that what counts in the world is himself or herself, will find a double the equivalent of floating on a raft resembling the bed of nails favored by Indian fakirs. I confess that those lines are a little overdrawn but I like to get ahead of myself, at times, and April 1 is not too far off. Paul Theroux, a subscriber to my newsletter, and who was kind enough to write the glowing foreword to my book, believes people who paddle doubles should be nominated for sainthood. Which may be true. On page 17 of the book there's a photo of Pope John Paul II in the front seat of a double during his seminarian days back in Poland. Who doubts that when our present pontiff meets his maker that he will not be rushed through the sainting process to a place in the Pantheon of Saints (I forget the term for the hallow halls of sainthood, pantheon sounds nice). Doctor, your title seems to suggest that you are a giver, as most in the medical profession are, and not a taker, which might be the case were your name followed by Esq. (will my lawyer friends ever forgive me; probably yes; lawyers have few friends and have to keep every one they have; it's usually just one). So the double suits you. But wait a minute! What if the Dr. title refers to your being a Doctor of Law! Maybe you better not paddle at all. :-) > In the Complete Folding Kayaker, Ralph states that "Solo paddling is fine" > with the Klepper Aerius II, but "best done with a solo seat". From what I > can tell, the solo seat is no longer necessary, since newer Kleppers all seem > to have movable seats. Is this right? Yes, it is absolutely right. The seat change made two or so years ago allows you some adjustment to a solo position. My own take on doubles: I think paddling in a double with someone you love (like a lover, spouse or child) or some one you like and admire, say a good friend, is a wonderful experience unlike anything else you can do on earth. You are literally in the same boat to share what you see and not find that the other person has drifted off in another single when you spot an otter's head peeking up at you and you can get their attention to marvel with you. It even works with someone you may not like all that much. I traveled some 150 miles in a double with a person with whom I have little in common and never have socialized with or anything. It did not bring us any closer together but it was a rewarding experience which I still cherish to this day. For a few days we were a team, working out our course, our stopping places, keeping ourselves safe in busy waters by spotting dangers looming down on us or lurking out of the corner of one eye. I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it. ralph diaz -- Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 02:33:53 -0800 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a Double Matt Broze wrote: > >> Ralph wrote: >> >> I see some couples who I know love each other and who share a passion >> for seakayaking but who are in singles. While I know singles offer >> their own reward, I am saddened because I know that in not having a >> double in their fleet they are missing some opportunities to regenerate >> love and reaffirm the spirit of sharing that underlies it. > > I see this very differently. It is my view that the couples who do best in a > double are the ones who have a captain/crew relationship where one person > makes all the decisions and the other always goes along. Communicating with > your partner is also much more difficult in the fore and aft position of a > double rather than with a side by side position (where you can turn to face > each other) than is possible paddling two singles. And you don't hate the > bow paddler for throwing water back in your face with their paddle with > every other stroke or for stopping and starting all the time making it hard > to keep your paddle in sync with theirs. I guess I'd rather have a partner > than a master or a slave. > I got stuck in a double for three weeks once; how I ached for a single. > I realized why they were called "divorce machines" after that. Before I > thought it was just a joke. Owwww! Matt, you are a bigger curmudgeon than I am! My SO and I paddle a double now and then (mostly on multi-day trips in cool places), and we also paddle singles (mostly on day trips). We like both ways, but there is a dimension to the double which is sort of like Ralph's description, and not much like Matt's. I liken it to ballroom dancing, in which the partners move their bodies and feet in tune together, one "leading," to be sure, but both mutually and subtly feeding cues to each other. We also enjoy sharing food and conversation in the double. For us, the double allows more intimacy, and we can talk in lower tones than if we are in separate singles. Sure enough, our paddles clack sometimes when the stern stroker (me, invariably) does not pay attention to the varying cadence of the bow paddler. I regard that as my fault, mainly, and always apologize for the error. In turn, the rudder guy (me) sometimes sends the bow paddler where she does not want to go. She retaliates by directing more of her paddlesplash at my face than usual!! But, these elements are just spice in the pudding, so to speak. We are both gregarious, and both a little headstrong, two qualities which work in opposition in a double, to some extent. But, it makes the double interesting. And, yes, I did divorce the woman I first paddled a double with some 30 years ago, but the incompatibility in the canoe was a symptom of a larger incompatibility in our lives. Even though she and I are friends yet today, we never could ballroom dance together successfully. Maybe that should be the test of whether couples should share a double kayak! Matt, do you dance? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR From: "Matt Broze" Subject: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a double Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 18:44:10 -0800 Dave Kruger wrote: > I liken it to ballroom dancing, in which the partners move their bodies and > feet in tune together, one "leading," to be sure, but both mutually and subtly > feeding cues to each other. We also enjoy sharing food and conversation in the > double. For us, the double allows more intimacy, and we can talk in lower tones > than if we are in separate singles. Funny, even though I was in a Feathercraft double (where the cockpits are closer than some) I found that I had to practically yell to have my partner hear me from either the front or back position. Miscommunications were common because of this. The front paddler's ears are facing the wrong way to hear from behind and the front paddlers mouth is also facing the wrong way to be easily heard. Side by side in singles its just an easy turn of the head to be face to face and have a nice conversation and if you want a hug you can get together for that too much more easily in a single. I agree paddling in a double together for a week might be a good test before getting married. Dave later wrote: >>Matt, do you dance? << I love to dance but don't do it often enough and developed the taste for it later in life. In an earlier post I said that one of the reasons I went to a symposium was for the dance. I do tend to like wild rock and roll and am totally untrained and get pretty wild. once I slow danced with a partner who made me feel that I was a great dancer but I imagine it was she who was the great dancer. As you know, I also dance on skis and back in the 70's was part of a couples act (as well as competing solo) in national freestyle contests. I have also used a double in some kayak races with a female partner and we got along great but then it was only for and hour or two at a time not several weeks. I would rather tow my partner than have to paddle in a double from either position. Then I won't have to deal with: 1)paddle splash--I put on my Sou'wester rain hat, difficulty communicating, 2)paddle clash--and the tension of trying to avoid it for the stern paddler, 3)wet ride for the bow paddle--as a double being longer and with more weight out towards the ends does not rise as well to the seas as a single although (I'll give Ralph a freebie here) folding kayaks that flex can be somewhat dryer--other things being equal), 4)so wide you feel like you're about to give birth in the stirrups just to work the rudder pedals, 5)longer paddles (less efficient and more difficult to control) are necessary--so the stern paddler can reach over the boat and so the bow paddler doesn't set too high a stroke rate for the stern paddler to keep up, 6)having to agree or negotiate every decision. NO THANKS! Matt Broze Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 23:49:20 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dancing in a double Matt Broze wrote: I doubt if I will ever convince Matt or anyone who is dead set against doubles of the virtues of paddling one but he enumerates nicely some complaints that actually bring out a whole litany of positive points for this type of boat: > I would rather tow my partner than have to paddle in a double from either > position. Then I won't have to deal with: > 1)paddle splash--I put on my Sou'wester rain hat, difficulty communicating, Man (and woman) were put on earth to suffer, at least that what my R.C. catechism said. Paddle splash, as such suffering goes, isn't all that bad. It certainly bits hell and brimfire. A plus side: the world takes on a surreal, hallucinatory look when seen through salt encrusted glasses...and it is all drug free and free. > 2)paddle clash--and the tension of trying to avoid it for the stern paddler, The nice thing about paddle clash is that it is so easy to blame the other person. How often in life can you feel so justifiably self-righteous and be certain you are right?...paddle clash is always the other paddler's fault. > 3)wet ride for the bow paddle--as a double being longer and with more weight > out towards the ends does not rise as well to the seas as a single although > (I'll give Ralph a freebie here) folding kayaks that flex can be somewhat > dryer--other things being equal) A freebie is always welcome but in truth the person in the bow even in a folding double gets splashed but that also means they act as a windshield...rule one of paddling a double: get somebody big and wide in front and you, the stern paddler, will be as dry as toast. Of course you won't see very much around the hulk sitting in the front. Have some reading material pinned to their back. > 4)so wide you feel like you're about to give birth in the stirrups just > to work the rudder pedals, Gynecologists have been wrestling with what advance to give pregnant women who still want to keep paddling. Matt, your observation holds an answer to this question. > 5)longer paddles (less efficient > and more difficult to control) are > necessary--so the stern paddler can reach over the boat and so the bow > paddler doesn't set too high a stroke rate for the stern paddler to > keep up, Longer paddles are actually good things to have as they make for more headroom when you use them to hold up a tarp (Greenland storm paddles are the worse). Working out that ratio of paddle lengths for the bow and the stern is good for learning higher mathematics; college-bound students can rate advanced math placement if they have paddled a double. > 6)having to agree or negotiate every decision. Do you realize that companies pay big bucks to corporate trainers and facilitators to instill such skills in employees on every level? How much cheaper and more enjoyable it would to take such lessons out of the classroom and put them on the water. > NO THANKS! Matt, this has been just great. The challenges and objections you raise have opened a whole positive side of paddling a double that I never envisioned. YES, THANKS!! :-) ralph :-) -- |
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2021-09-25 04:25:51
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Post #8
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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PaddleWise Discussion on Rolling a Folding Kayak The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission. Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:10:12 -0700 From: [Ralph Diaz] Subject: [Paddlewise] into the fray My internet server, Netcom, was on the blink regarding email for the last 24 hours or so. And so, I didn't get the stream of discussion regarding rolling, paddlefloats, et al until this morning in one lump sum. Very enlightening to see it all at once as it lets you step back to see the forest not just the trees. If I recall, I think this all started with the beginning of a discussion of Lone Malden's death in Greenland that was narrated by her paddling mate in the most recent issue of Sea Kayaker. And perhaps we should address that. For my 2 cents, when I heard that she did not know how to roll and that she regularly choose to paddle hundreds of yards away from her companion in those waters, I was dumbfounded. I don't roll, and that may make me lesser of a paddler than some of you (I say "some" because a good 80% of sea kayakers do not know how to roll at all or certainly not in any reliable way), but I would never have chosen to do the type of paddling that she did, where she did, in her kind of kayak without something approaching a bombproof roll. Out of her boat, in the waters she regularly paddled, self-rescue would always be dicey at best. I made a choice quite awhile ago to get into a class of boat which do not roll easily nor do they need to...folding kayaks. That is a generalization about them as a breed. Some of them can be rolled readily...the Feathercraft Khatsalano comes to mind (and so can the K-Light and K-1). But the others cannot be reliably rolled. Klepper singles have been rolled but more of a circus act in a pool or off of a calm beach, i.e. not a reliable self-rescue technique in open water. Folding kayaks, such as Kleppers, have quite reliably been paddled in rough conditions all over the world without capsizing. Where they have tipped over generally has been when under sail, which is a tricky thing under certain conditions such as near headlands, where wind gusts catch the top of the Klepper gaff-rigged S-4 sail and tip the boat. It does take a lot to capsize one while paddling. It happens rarely. The only time a folding kayak has gone over on me while paddling was when I got caught in a strainer and the rushing water caught the upstream side of my deck and flipped me (in that situation, a strainer, a roll would not have worked in any kayak). Oh, I saw one go over on the PBS Trailwise show of the round Manhattan circumnavigation. The host was in a single Klepper and was in the whirlpools that temporarily form around Hell Gate at certain tidal cycle times. His paddle got caught by the swirly water and he tried to hang on to it figuring his big muscles would win out (score: water dynamics 1, big muscles zero). If I had stayed with hardshells, which was my intention when I started paddling, I would have worked my darnest to get a reliable roll and to practice it regularly, which is the only sensible thing to do in certain kinds of boats. Once I went to a kind of boat that rolling was not much of a self-rescue option, the incentive to learn was gone. I have dabbled at it every half dozen years but never really pushed it. It ain't witchcraft or voodoo, it can be learned. And it is fun as some people have pointed out. Let's see if I can summarize regarding hardshells. I have no stake in this one way or another as I don't paddle them, so no particular axe to grind on the roll vs. other rescue techniques: 1. If your intention is to go out into the ocean in a hardshell and play in surf, you must develop a good roll in the process. To do anything less is foolhardy. What Lone did in Greenland was unwise considering the conditions she would be in fairly constantly. She had tons of rescue and safety gear such as EPIRB, VHF radio, flares, paddlefloat, etc. but not the internal thing she really needed to save herself, i.e. an ability to stay in her boat and either roll it up or hang in there in a storm scull until she could get her wits about her or into better waters. And, again, she was paddling so far away from her paddlemate that he could not do a thing for her, albeit it seems he probably didn't know much about assisted rescues in rough conditions either, or I could be wrong. 2. Whatever you do regarding rolling, do get a reentry and roll down pat, especially if your ordinary roll is not absolutely reliable. Help yourself along by having either a rigid foam float or a partially inflated one ready. And it is absolutely best that you do so in a way that you connect your skirt before rolling up in order to keep water out. When I was looking into hardshells and the renter and roll technique back then it was always taught and practiced in this way. i.e. attach skirt under water. I was fairly shocked to see in Sea Kayaker a year or two ago that Nigel Foster was showing it without that step, which will definitely scoop up a cockpit full of water. If you are using this rescue method, it might as well be "in for a penny, in for a sixpence." 3. Paddlefloats and pumps are only as good as the paddler and his/her practice with them. Sounds like a cliche, but I can't begin to count the number of paddlers of hardshells that I have run across who dutifully carry them and have never practiced using them at all. I guess they think, like in having a jack and spare tire in your car trunk, you can just deal with them when the emergency comes and you can read the owner's manual etc. I know this is a hard point to argue especially in this illustrious company of Paddlewise, which is already a semi-select group because it is at least interested in such subjects as this, but really, most paddlers with pumps and floats on their back decks have never used them even in practice. I think this underscores John Winters point about blind faith in gear, especially among the unitiated; hell that's more than blind faith, it is expecting a miracle to save you. ralph diaz Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:46:57 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling was Re: How do you hold your paddle? Allan Singleton wrote: > Matt Broze wrote: > But if I was paddling in New Zealand it would be upside down (but so would I). > > Now you know why I have never bothered learning to roll! I have never learned how to roll, either. But I have never tried very hard and have less of an incentive to do so because of being in folding kayaks. All of them actually can be rolled, some easier than others, but it tends to be a deliberate, calculated act rather than one of necessity, the exception being something like the Feathercraft Khatsalano (all 3 or 4 versions that have been made), which, in that respect, acts more like a hardshell than say a Nautiraid Raid 1 or Klepper single. Having said that, however, I do dabble in learning how to roll now and then. I tried early on about 10 years ago when I thought I would be using single hardshells but then stopped the effort when I saw the light in the folding singles. But of late, I have tried again. I am now in the process of being real earnest about it over the winter, thanks to the kind efforts of Gabriel Romeu, a fellow PaddleWiser and friend, who is going out of his way to get me to lessons with some of the best rolling instructors in the business, at least on the East Coast. I still lack the driving incentive because of what I paddle. If I had stayed in hardshells, I would most definitely have learned how to roll. I would never own a hardshell unless I was on the road to developing a roll. Funny how our various schools of thought can co-exist, i.e. those who see this as a wet sport (one of local great local instructors, Ray Killen, ends his all his mail with "Stay Wet!) and those, like me, who believe in staying dry and on top. While there are some in the "Stay Wet!" school (not at all Ray) tend to deny the legitimacy of the Stay Dry school (I hear comments, not always in jest, about when am I going to get into a "real" sea kayak), I suspect a lot more understanding all around is what prevails these days thanks in great part to forums such as Paddlewise. ralph diaz Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:09:51 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling, rolling, keep them kayaks . . . KiAyker@... wrote: > > Actually, the discussion on rec.boats.paddle.touring began with someone's > claim that all competent trip leaders should know how to roll. A position > which I have been staunchly arguing against. It then degenerated into the > proposition that all competent sea kayakers should know how to roll. Again, I > don't agree. Mr. Bowles, whom I believe is a part of this list also, makes a > valid point when he throws canoeing into the equation. > As I pointed out on the newsgroup, there are various levels of sea > kayaking, each requiring different amounts of skill and equipment. People who > are content exploring calm water on the weekend certainly do not need to know > how to roll. They are still, nevertheless, part of our sea kayaking > community. I also do not believe that people who enjoy well run group trips > need to be up on their solo rescues either. Of course, it wouldn't hurt! But > it's not necessary for either the group, or the group leader to have these > skills. > > Scott I saw Scott's posting to that newsgroup and thought it was quite well-stated. Another thing that Scott elaborated on, but which he doesn't mention here, is an excellent point about leaders. He stressed that the skills that should be looked on for them is not whether they can roll or not but rather that they possess judgment and knowledge to see a group reasonably safely through the waters they are paddling. Whether that individual has two dozen rolling techniques or not makes little difference for the group. He or she certainly should also have a no-nonsense assisted rescue technique which he or she can put into action without hesitation or pondering. The reason I added that last point is that I know of one case years ago here in the harbor on a busy weekend when a double kayak went over. Pleasure crafts were whizzing around and they were in the path of several ferries. The leader came over and started debating with himself and others whether to use X method or Y method and who exactly should do it and from what angle, etc. A silly waste of time was being wasted in figuring out the optimum approach when what should hold, borrowing from Nike ads, "Just Do It!" While he was holding court, a very skilled old-timer solo canoeist just paddled up and did the rescue, no bull shit. best, ralph -- Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:48:18 -0800 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Survey results Scott, Thanks for taking the time to do this survey. I have a couple of comments: KiAyker@... wrote: > The problem I have been having has to do with putting a value on the > Eskimo roll for touring/sea kayakers. While I agree that learning the roll > usually makes learning bracing and other skills easier, and it can instill a > greater sense of self confidence in the paddler (a good thing?), the fact > remains that some very dramatic voyages have been undertaken by kayakers who > could not roll, either because they lacked the skill, or because the boat > they were using was not rollable. SNIP I just donâ^À^Ùt understand > why the roll is apparently of such great importance to beginning sea kayakers > while it is virtually ignored by experienced canoeists and explorers? A lot of the dramatic voyages have been done in folding kayaks and so to a degree this is true. Folding kayaks can be rolled but not as reliably as other kayaks. Depends on the model. In any folding kayak you need to be tightly positioned in the boat and few people bother to set up their foldables in that way except for performance ones like the Khatsalano. And with many a dramatic voyage involving double foldables, the task of rolling in an emergency is even more askewed. I have seen double foldables rolled but mainly as what I term a circus act, i.e. alongside a dock, carefully set up, lots of discussions, agreement on a countdown to coordinate the roll etc. I can't imagine two guys or gals in a double into their 20 mile on a particular day when they suddenly get knocked over having the instinct to perform a coordinated roll while fatigued and lost in their own thoughts when they suddenly hit the water. Same with a solo paddler in a double folding kayak, another standard for longish voyages. It would be a bitch to roll. But in singles like the Khats (or its sister Feathercraft, the K-1), rolling should be a self-required skill for any deep water voyager. Back to the dramatic voyages. Who doubts that Lone Madsen, who perished a year or two ago in Greenland in her hardshell, would not have had a different story to tell if she had known how to roll. I can't see how anyone would attempt what she did in such hairy waters without a very reliable roll and an impeccable reenter-and-roll as a backup. She simply could not do either and was not up to even a paddle float rescue from what I understand, albeit conditions would have taxed any paddle float rescue attempt. > answers I received. 37% responded that they could not roll, 34% could roll > close to 100% of the time, and the rest fell in between. Rolling has been an evolving phenomenon. Better teaching methods, better outfitting of boats and contagious enthusiasm have tended to up the figures of those who can roll reliably or have any rolling ability. Depends on the paddling circles you run in. In some paddling circles, a high portion of people roll and a high portion within that have a pretty reliable combat roll. In others, the percentages are quite low. Figures for PaddleWise can be somewhat askewed since this is an enthusiasts listserver and perhaps people are reluctant to admit they can't. But the figures you come up with are in keeping with what I have seen in some paddling circles. And it is improving. About 5 years ago I was at the Delmarva Paddlers Retreat which draws a more skilled crowd of paddlers and is a mecca now for Greenlandic paddling. A show of hands came up with about 20% saying they had a reliable or combat roll. I would suspect that now that same group would be up around a third as your survey comes up with, perhaps even higher. (But if you were to ask that question in my paddling crowd at the Boathouse, you would find that those with a combat roll would be, at best, in the low single digit percentage and a very low percentage could say they have done any rolling at all.) What has helped is better teaching styles, the spread of better instructor types (official, certified or not official nor certified), and the good ole Greenland paddle, which simplifies teaching rolling. When I first started paddling a dozen years ago and thought I would wind up in a hardshell, I took some serious stabs at learning to roll. My story is quite comical and I will share that in print one day...but I didn't learn. Groups too big in terms of people to instructor ratios, too brief sessions, and instructors who weren't as attuned to the needs of a wide range of people's needs and ways of learning. Then I discovered the real worth and reliability of single folding kayaks and just dropped the rolling quest. More recently I have returned to the rolling pursuit, mainly because I am a curious soul not for any real need in the type of boat I paddle (which won't really tip over easily and are quite easy to re-enter without props). Also Gabriel Romeu, who I met via PaddleWise, generously offered to make the logistics easy for me to get to some excellent instructors with good one-on-one oppportunities for long enough time slots. After some so-so attempts last year, it finally worked for me in January. The ingredients were a good instructor, Dan Smith of Philadelphia, the Greenland paddle in a Pawlata extended paddle grip, and the right method of instruction that clicked for me (Dan uses something like what Matt Broze says in his web page about going through the stages components particularly from finish position back down into the water). 15 minutes with Dan and I was rolling over and over again; sloppy, poor technique, but rolling nevertheless. So now I am rolling a hardshell in a pool with the normal progression of most people who have learned to roll (i.e. some good sessions followed by regression into piss poor sessions). I intend to followup over the coming months with a Euro paddle and a folding kayak such as the K-Light. I doubt I will ever get a combat roll as there isn't that much of an incentive for one in the boats I paddle. Moreover, I do think this should be a dry sport not a wet sport as some insist. I want to be on the surface and favor boats that will keep me there not ones that I have to coax to stay upright with an assortment of skills and then recover with a roll from wet if I do capsize. My final thought. If a person like me can learn to roll at the ripe age of 61 with little pressing urgency or incentive to do so, then certainly anyone can and should if paddling a hardshell under 23.55 inch beam (how's that for being arbitrary :-)). Whether you then can progress to a reliable roll in combat situations is another matter. But if you paddle the kind of boat that can more easily capsize and is harder to remount, then do go for it. Thanks for listening, ralph diaz -- From: Bob Denton Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:20:47 -0400 I had a chance to try and roll a K-Light on Saturday and gave up after 3 attempts. I had no problem flicking back off the bow of another boat but couldn't get any purchase on the Feathercraft. There was too much lateral movement. It felt like a couple of foam hip pads may do the trick? Does anyone roll a K-Light? If so, how did you outfit it? cya Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:10:20 -0700 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite I haven't but have watched it done. Also had a lead article in one of my newsletters this year about rolling one. Apparently when the boat was first introduced in 1993, Chris Cunningham, editor of Sea Kayaker, got in one and rolled and rolled it over again. The person who I saw do it over and over again in a pool in Philadelphia was a first time roller, really learning on the K-Light how to roll. He had no particular padding inside (nor on him...a small fellow). He was also using the slippery seasock. He almost got an off side roll in the sessions I watched him. The secret? Obviously padding would help and there are sorts of approaches to this. But another few tricks to try are: --bring the foot pedals closer to you than is normally comfortable. This helps jam you in place more tightly driving your knees into the deck fabric for better grip. --recognize that the boat has a bit more inertia to it than a hardshell. So let the boat come up more on its own before doing a sweep or whatever roll you do (this I got from Ken Fink of Poseidon Kayaks in Walpole Maine, who regularly teaches people how to roll using K-Lights. ralph diaz -- Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:36:34 +0200 From: Reinhold Werner Weber Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to roll. On the other hand, they don't turn over in rough seas easily. But some people have done it. See: Dave rolls a Klepper http://www.vsb.cape.com/~mccue/docs/klepper.html In the July/August number of Kanu Magazin (in German) there was a photo of a Feathercraft Klondike (a double!) being rolled. With air-sponsons deflated, they indicated. But these are rare, exceptional performances. Reinhold Weber Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:21:27 -0700 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite While it takes a lot to roll a double folding kayak, it is not exceptional. Any pair of good rollers can do it. I have seen it done with the double Klepper, which is wider than the Klondike by almost half a foot, and with the sponsons inflated. The hardest job may be in tipping the boat over in the first place. The pair I saw had to practically dive over the side while attached to their sprayskirts in order to get the boat to flip. But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic. They are not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay centered in your boat will do. I first became really aware of this when I was out in a Klepper Aerius I with friends who were in hardshells. We were together in a particularly funny spot on the Connecticut coast in which waters were swirling and clashing around some islands. My friends were within a boat length or two of me and had to brace to keep their kayaks steady. I was so fascinated by their bracing that I put down my paddle, placed it in its paddle pocket and reached into my lunch bag. While in the very same conditions as they, I eat a half a sandwich watching them bracing. Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them. They all can tip but they have to go pretty far over to do so. I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through like it might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat. Rolling is more of a circus act, to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the guys in Germany mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike. ralph diaz -- From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:59:13 EDT Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite Reinhold Werner Weber writes: << It is generally known that foldables with air-sponsons are very difficult to roll. ... >> What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold? There's a couple of guys in NYC who roll their Klepper Aerius II on the Hudson (without special outfitting, I believe). The K-Lite rolls rather well actually, as does the Khatsalano. Ralph Diaz's advice about jamming your legs under the deck helps if you have not yet outfitted the boat to suit your build. The trick is to keep your heels close together and splay out your knees under the coaming to also gain sufficient lateral hold. I have sculled a K1 with both ears in the water and had no trouble at all getting back up (the owner / dealer asked me not to roll because he did not want to get an aluminium framed boat full of saltwater in case I punched out :-) And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). Grinning from ear to ear ... Ralph C. Hoehn From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:25:01 EDT Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling folding kayaks ralph diaz writes: > I am not certain that a folding kayak, except a very slim one like the > Khatsalano, could be reliably rolled, i.e. a roll seeing you through like it > might in a slimmer hardshell or skinboat. Rolling is more of a circus act, > to be performed like the pair I saw with the Klepper and the guys in Germany > mentioned above with their Feathercraft Klondike. > Ralph, 1 - Learning to roll of course always makes for excellent skills practice -- even in a folding kayak. But I agree that in the case of the latter rolling might come under the category of "circus act" in the best possible sense. 2 - On the other hand I wish I'd had the guts to invert in the face of a particularly nasty breaker and roll back up on the other side a couple of months ago because I'm sure that the bottom of my boat would have proved much more resilient than my neck and back. No circus trick that! (For the record: After getting slammed quite hard the boat just punched through and popped up on the other side of the wave on an even keel unscathed -- I got a free back rub that evening, poor baby :-) The Other Ralph Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:23:32 +0200 From: Reinhold Werner Weber Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 [Ralph C. Hoehn] wrote: > What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold? Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its canvas deck wet will make it last longer! Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a circus act, really fun, but you don't need it. I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling foldables. That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important safety feature. > And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 > (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on > www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the Klondike (print only). > > Grinning from ear to ear ... > But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are difficult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak. For an example see: http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.) These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Two models subsist: Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs' Pouch Falt-Eski Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the Falt-Eski. Reinhold Weber From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:52:22 EDT Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite Couldn't resist a point-by-point here: > RH: What type of boat do you normally roll, Reinhold? > RWW: Why should I normally roll my Klepper?? I've never heard that getting its > canvas deck wet will make it last longer! RH: Pickling it in brine helps to check the rot, just don't wash it with fresh water later! My RZ85 (double) has survived 30 years of such "abuse" :-) > RWW: Rolling a foldable with air-sponsons is a circus act, really fun, but > you don't need it. RH: Most of the time you don't need your PFD, GPS, first aid kit, tow rope ... in fact I don't need to be able to do a handstand either, but practicing it has certain indirect benefits nonetheless. As I pointed out previously: Bracing, sculling and rolling practice is a good back-up to (boat-) form-stability complacency! > RWW: I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for > some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling foldables. RH: Excellent point. I'd better start one. Or do you want to? :-) > RWW: That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an > important safety feature. RH: I expect that most hard shell paddlers never actually need a roll either. Depends on the boat, the paddling circumstances etc. Ralph Diaz has written eloquently on the subject with regard to folding boats here recently, so no need to go into it further. > RH: And, dare I point it out, the Pouch singles E65 (no sponsons) and E68 > (sponsons and 27" beam) roll with little trouble (pictures on > www.PouchBoats.com to prove it in the case of the latter). > RWW: I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being rolled on your > site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for the picture of the > Klondike (print only). RH: I take that as a challenge :-)). But I need a partner for this: My usual bow man is only 3 feet tall. Anyone Wise Paddlers in the Stamford CT area up for it? On-water demo day in South Norwalk CT coming up this Saturday ... > RH: Grinning from ear to ear ... > RWW: But let's get a bit more serious: ... RH: And here I was trying not to be a "typical" German. > RWW: ... I wrote that folders with air-sponsons are dificult to roll, not > foldables in general. Let's remember that the eskimo-roll was re-invented by > Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim greenland style folding kayak. RH: 1927 it was. Franz von Alber was next and the Rautenberg brothers probably have a justified claim to having developed a roll independently. "Kipp Kipp Hurra! Im reinrassigen Eskimokajak!" Do you have access to a copy? > RWW: For an example see: > http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, > maintainer of Pouch inofficial has acquired and restored. German text and > lots of pictures.) RH: He has so far refused to send it over here for me to "test". (See, Marian, now it's out in the open and you're embarrassed. I warned you about this!!) > RWW: These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. > Two models subsist: > Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs' > Pouch Falt-Eski > Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on the > Falt-Eski. RH: The Pouch Falt-Eski clearly and regrettably did not appeal to a large enough market to secure its commercial viability. The boat was designed for one particular paddler in such a way as to suit his not-so-standard dimensions. If you're going to spend the kind of money that it takes to get a commercial builder to create such a craft, you want it to fit perfectly, after all, Arctic kayaks were built specifically for each paddler. But never say never in the context of a Pouch Falt-Eski ... Also, there is a surprisingly large "underground" of folding kayak builders out there. If you're interested, drop me a line off-list, so we don't bore the rest of the PaddleWisenheimers to tears with more "mere" folding kayak stuff. :-) Ralph C. Hoehn Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:38:02 -0700 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite The Nautiraid Greenlander went through 3 generations in about a dozen years. The current one is 27 inches wide and not meant to roll. The original Nautiraid Greenlander was 19 inches wide without air sponsons. It was highly rolleable. It was also highly unpaddleable for most people and was not a success (it was later given sponsons that took the boat to about 23-24 inch beam but it too did not sell well). For some reason folding kayaks that are on the narrow side often seem much more tippy than a hardshell of the same dimensions. Take for example the Feathercraft Khatsalano without sponsons which has a beam of around 22 inches. It feels more tippy than a hardshell of that beam or of even 21 inch beam. That particular model, as well as the Khatsalano with sponsons, seems to want to tip to one side when at rest, i.e. rest on one chine or another. It is disconcerting until you get used to it. It leaves you with a sideways slouch. ralph diaz -- Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:31:54 +0200 From: Marian Gunkel Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling a K-lite Reinhold Weber wrote: > I have been watching Faltboot.de (the German folding news group) now for > some time, but I haven't noticed yet a discussion about rolling > foldables. > That is difference with respect to plastic boats, where it is an important > safety feature. This might be a function of the German folding kayakers in general: they seem to be rather conservative in learning "new" things and they are also quite lazy whern it comes to safety issues. Wearing a PFD almost all the time puts me into the position of an outsider (although the call for more safety begins to work!). The same with things like paddle or bracing techniques. If I recall it correctly, there are more fatalities among the German touring paddlers than among the WW paddlers (the latter are very safety concious). > Reinhold Weber: > I am looking forward to see a Pouch RZ 96 double being > rolled on your site. This would be some kind of "Ersatz" to PW Members for > the picture of the Klondike (print only). I'll be putting that Klondike picture some place on my website so that PW members can have a look too. I won't be able to get my hands on a RZ 96 double soon, so I have to rely on some willing American paddlers rolling Ralphs boat on the demo day in CT. > But let's get a bit more serious: I wrote that folders with air-sponsons > are dificult to roll, not foldables in general. Let's remember that the > eskimo-roll was re-invented by Eddi Hans Pawlata in the twenties in a slim > greenland style folding kayak. For an example see: > > http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell.html > > (It's the Gesa-Möll Marian Gunkel, maintainer of Pouch inofficial has > acquired and restored. German text and lots of pictures.) Shame on me, I don't have any pictures with the boat on the water yet (although I paddled it twice since I got the new skin last week). The Moell-Kayak had been constructed to paddle mainly WW but also coastal water with some touring luggage. Rolling in it is definitively easy and the boat contact can only be compared to a Kathsalano. Unfortunately, the boat has only been manufactured in the 50's an early 60's and some 20 models were produced. On rolling: I can roll a K-Light very easily as well as an Pouch E 68, and with some little difficulties my 45 year old Pouch E65. As has been stated already, rolling a kayak is mainly a matter of good boat contact and good technique: both the K-Light and the E 68 provide very good boat contact. > > These were folding kayaks to be rolled. Today they have nearly died out. Some German kayakers are quite successful in designing and building foldable sea kayaks. There's a world besides the commercial boat builders ... :-) > Two models subsist: > Nautiraid Greenlander (with 'stabilairs' > Pouch Falt-Eski > Both don't seem to be commercial successes. Perhaps you might comment on > the Falt-Eski. I am not Ralph but may I comment? The Pouch Falt-Eski (www.pouch-inoffiziell.de/boote/falteski.html in German) had been designed by someone more than 2 meters (thats somewhere above 6 ft ..): apparently the boat wasn't very well received by the market (also due to some changes in the ribs that improved the boats initial stability) so Pouch decided to stop it's production. In my opinion and in the opinion of the few Falt-Eski owners, the boat tracks really great and it handled good on choppy waters. So, the boat might not be dead. On commercial success: both boats aim for a very small target group. Since the folding kayak market is a niche itself, those boats really *can't* be commercial successes. Disclaimer: I am sympathising with Pouch and am the webmaster of Pouch-inoffiziell.de (non commercial) and PouchBoats.com (commercial). Regards, Marian Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:23:59 +0100 From: Marian Gunkel Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Folkding Kayaks Topic on PW Website > For those interested in discussion on folding kayaks, you might > want to check out the PaddleWise web pages on folding kayaks at > http://www.paddlewise.net/topics/foldingkayak/ Reading through the folding kayak topics, I remembered to having promised publishing a picture of a Feathercraft Klondike being rolled. You'll see it at http://www.mariangunkel.de/pics/klondike_roll.jpg (copyright by Kanu Magazin) This picture appeared in an article comparing some folding kayak doubles. I also translated the page on the greenlandic folding kayak Gesa Moell into English (with some help) and added some photos of the boat in use: http://www.mariangunkel.de/moell_e.html Regards, Marian Marian Gunkel, Berlin, Germany Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:45:22 +1100 From: PJ Rattenbury Subject: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats All, Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it. By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which would put you upside down in one of these boats? This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning friends. My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat. And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit without going to ludicrous measures. All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like mine to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling. And because I paddle mostly in open sea, this means practice in realistically rough conditions. It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly obsess about; and I guess if I owned a boat which allowed me to hang upside down in force four [ or worse ] conditions while I set up for a roll, I would practice the same technique. At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an emphasis on rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't roll, you aren't really a seakayaker. This I think comes from the mind set of really expert kayakers who can roll up if they are trashed on a surf exit or entry, which is where most of us come unstuck. We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a rocky lee shore, and unable to self rescue. In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help them get upright and/or out of danger. Some of these folks had probably practiced rolling, but when they encountered a suprise capsize, which is quite a different kettle of fish to a controlled set up roll in flat calm, they failed to rescue themselves. Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as the primary self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry upside down, and roll up. And how many of us can do that, or practice this? Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat community? Peter Rattenbury From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:18:18 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats Peter Rattenbury: > Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real > conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it. > By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which > would put you upside down in one of these boats? Ralph Hoehn: Peter, that depends. Khatsalano owners will happily roll all day long and are well advised to be able to do so. At least some larger and heavier users of K-Light and Alu-Lite will also benefit from a roll even under "normal" paddling circumstances. Let's expand your question to the wider range of currently available folding boats: In a broad generalization Folbot, Klepper and Nautiraid singles, as well as the Feathercraft K1 and the Pouch E65 will not need to be rolled under normal circumstances, nor are they intended to be, but, as Jochen Grikschat points out, ("rolling for everyone"): Having the skills to perform a roll will make your paddling in general that much more self-confident. Seavivor singles (I'm told) and the Pouch E68 can be paddled comfortably without ever rolling. However, if you take them into or through surf (where they are a lot of fun!) the ability to roll will stand you in good stead, increase your enjoyment of the experience and make you safer -- it will make the unit of you, the paddler, and your craft that much more seaworthy (no boat is seaworthy until it has a competent operator). Folding doubles should probably not be rolled under real life conditions. It is hard and requires very good cordination. If the circumstances are such that you capsized in the first place, a technique, which is already complicated to perform in a double, will most likely become impossible. At that point it's easier and probably safer to perform an inverted exit, right the boat and reenter, the one paddler helping the other. Practice this in earnest! HOWEVER: The important thing is NOT the act of rolling, but rather the acquisition of the skill that COULD give you the ability to roll. Many folding kayakers are complacent in that they love to rely on the "legendary" stability of their boats to see them through adversity. In short, steep breaking waves however this stability works against you once the severity of the sea state surpasses a certain point: The tendency of the boat to stay parallel to the surface of the water leaves you perpendicular to it even when the surface of the water is no longer level. Eventually that will lead to a capsize, unless you have the confidence and ability to brace very aggressively into the (breaking) wave that's about to tumble you. In fact, in a "stable" folding boat, your brace needs to be much more aggressive than in less stable craft. I contend that having practiced inversion prevention and inversion recovery in any boat will be of benefit to you under such circumstances (even if you never take it to a full inversion and recovery, the "circus trick"; and by the way, Ralph Diaz continues to work hard on his rolling skills, even if he has no intention of ever running away to the circus, which is what I threatened my parents with most of a life time ago). PR: > This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who > is constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning > friends. My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason > of its air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the > whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat. RH: (pet peeve: It's not the air sponsons that give the boat stability, but the area, shape and distribution (along the length of the boat) of the hull's submerged cross sections. Increasing beam will tend to increase stability -- whether the exterior shape of the hull is determined by the outline of the boat's sponsonless frame or by inserted sponsons or by the skin being stuffed full of old socks is irrelevant. Inflatable sponsons provide no stability until the boat is swamped.) I quite agree with you that the notion of rolling a Klepper single (and most other folding singles for that matter) is contrary to its design of course. These boats were designed for relatively calm river touring, not for sea kayaking; they are not intended to invert. However, more and more kayakers are pushing the envelope of what is possible with these boats. To do so, to take the boats beyond their design limits, you need skills and technique ... or you have to change to a boat which is designed for more extreme conditions. Incidentally, Edi Hans Pawlata writes in his introduction to "Kipp, kipp hurrah!" (published in 1928) describes how he was not only proud to see his first student perform a roll in a narrow, Greenland-type hull, but for that same student to effect the technique in a "normal" river touring (folding) boat. The design of the latter is likely to have been very similar to traditional folding singles like the Klepper (as opposed to the more recently developed folding boats entering the market in the last few years). PR: > And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without > dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I > just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit > without going to ludicrous measures. RH: - Retrofitting solid footrests (if they are not factory installed) is something one should do to any (folding) boat unless the transverse frames happen to provide decent purchase for your feet. - A firm, fixed seat and back rest should be a standard requirement. - I've had no problems bracing my knees under the coaming of Klepper doubles for my third vital contact point to effect boat control (in single paddler mode). - The only modification I made to my Pouch RZ96 for pool training was to strap inflatable buoyancy bags to the frame at the gunwales on either side of the seat: Perfect, cheap, infinitely adjustable outfitting. None of it ludicrous in my book, none of it interfered in any way with my ability to exit inverted. Try it (especially the exit!), practice it ... Jochen Grikschat is somewhat of an extreme paddler (about whom one might here more in this respect in due course); nonetheless he admits to fear in a boat and a decrease of that fear after learning certain techniques AND practicing them. This does apply to folding boats no less! PR: > All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like > mine to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling. And > because I paddle mostly in open sea, this means practice in realistically > rough conditions. RH: Rolling your Klepper single is NOT a rescue technique until you are VERY good at it. Preventing an inversion is your first best form of "rescue" and, I trust, you practice this religiously, too. Of course practicing reentry techniques is a prerequisite for your type of paddling for the time when all else fails ... but I'd prefer not to put myself at risk of hungry critters (;-) or, more importantly, hypothermia in the first place. Therefore I strongly advocate that even, no, especially (complacent) folding boat owners wake up and practice boat control techniques (which, in my 30 years in folding boats, I have seen very few do ... including me for the first few years until the usefulness of technique use was pointed out to me by courtesy of a relatively benign mishap, which could have ended in disaster). If of course you only paddle on a mill pond on a perfectly calm sunny summer Sunday afternoon you may wish to laugh me out of court. PR: > It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly > obsess about; ... At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an > emphasis on rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't > roll, you aren't really a seakayaker. RH: Yep, people obsess about this mystical thing misnamed rolling -- wrongly and at the expense of seeing the greater picture. PR: > We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found > themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or > plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a rocky > lee shore, and unable to self rescue. > In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help > them get upright and/or out of danger. Some of these folks had probably > practiced rolling, but when they encountered a suprise capsize, which is > quite a different kettle of fish to a controlled set up roll in flat calm, > they failed to rescue themselves. > Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as > the primary self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry > upside down, and roll up. And how many of us can do that, or practice this? RH: No comment!!! PR: > Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat > community? RH: A few ... now, where to start ... ;-) Ralph From: "ralph diaz" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:29:44 -0500 From: "PJ Rattenbury" > > Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real > conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it. > By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which > would put you upside down in one of these boats? The Feathercraft singles, particularly the K-1 and Khatsalano, are more enough like a hardshell in terms of tighter cockpit fit and width, that some people do roll them more often especially the Khats. > This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is > constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning > friends. > My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its > air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the > whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat. > And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without > dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. > I just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit > without going to ludicrous measures. Actually you could equip the Klepper pretty adequately to keep you locked in enough not to fall out if upside down. When I had my Klepper, I had sidebags alongside me in the cockpit that were so tight that they would have held me in an upside position particularly if I put my knees under the crossrib just a bit forward of the seat. That crossrib is cut in a way that I, at my torso length and leg length, could brace with my legs just back from the knees. Believe me, I was locked in. I never tried rolling and the boat, at its width and with those sponsons, would have resisted a roll some. But it certainly would have been doable. But, as you point out, rolling isn't a practical self-defense or self-rescue technique in a Klepper. You best bet is prevention. Stay well centered in your single Klepper, and there isn't much that will knock you over except stupidity. A case in point on the latter happened during one of those Trailside shows, the one in which Eric Stiller circumnavigated Manhattan with the show's host at the time, Peter Whittaker. Peter was in a single Klepper and Eric in an-unaccustomed-for-him Khatsalano (Eric had sold and promoted Kleppers for some 20 years or so). They were in the area of some whirling waters in the Hell Gate vicinity. Peter got his paddle caught in a downward whirl of a whirlpool. Instead of letting go or slicing the blade back up, he hung on to it figuring he could muscle it up. He couldn't and flipped. I found it hilarious that the more stable boat went over. Experience showed since Eric was a long-time paddler and would not have let that happen to him. ralph diaz -- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:25:24 +1100 From: PJ Rattenbury Subject: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats Thanks Ralph H, and others for interesting posts on this issue. Ralph I agree with your points. After sending my first post I immediately thought of the Khats crowd, and how they probably bought their boat so they COULD roll! But down this part of the world, ANY folding boat is a very rare beast. I have heard a rumor there is a Khats or two in Australia but I have never seen one. I see the odd Klepper around, and there are one or two Feathercraft K1 and Lite devotees among the dozens of glass and plastic boat owners in my local seakayaking club. Understandably, the conversation down under is dominated by how to develop bombproof rolls and the finer points of repairing and altering fibreglass hulls [ ( ;- ] ! I think we agree that folding boat owners should really emphasise their ability to brace. The irony, as you point out, is that you can get by without bracing much of the time in these fat boats, until you REALLY need to brace! In other words the primary stability breeds laziness. Your comments on your cockpit fit out are interesting. One of my first modications on the Klepper was to throw away their steering cable chains, replacing them with high-wear cordage which I can loop around and clip to a rib when I am not using the rudder. This modification enables me to brace the rudder pedals in an upright position and thus have nice firm footrests. I am fortunately of the right size to be able to also jam myself into the cockpit and CAN hang upside down in the boat. Just for fun. Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down. In extremis, ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc, the boat will provide a relatively level platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc. That is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the 'right side up'. Maybe this is comforting as I live 'downunder'! Perhaps I should explain that I tend to paddle alone so my mindset is always to survive alone. I don't know if other foldables can be paddled full of water, but I practice this also. Again, it is just another technique which helps you extend the capabilities of the design. This of course is more practical if the boat is full of gear, or carries bow and stern floatation. This is where the Klepper gets its U-boat nickname! Downunder, we tend to fit electric pumps, and in my case I have a Rule 800gph, and a rather large sealed lead acid 12v battery which has proved a reliable setup over several years. With manual pump and bucket backup of course. You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess that's right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat in capable hands is still a safe prospect at sea. And I have found that at the end of the day, ie, six hours into a head wind and sea, I am still there with the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most fashionable, but still there. And I really appreciate the design's seaworthiness, almost an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability to sail, the ability to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking in high wind/seas compared with some boats, and the relative chances of a successful re-entry on capsize, all combine to make it a plus for survivability. I AM going to pursue rolling the Klepper, out of cussedness, as much as anything. But I will take survivability over rollability anytime. Peter Rattenbury From: SeaKayakNH@... Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:04:00 EST Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Eskimo Rolling Wide Boats In a message dated 2/14/01 11:53:22 PM, [Peter Rattenbury] writes: > Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive > capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down. In > extremis, ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc, the boat will provide a > relatively level platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc. That > is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the > 'right side up'. << huge snip of interesting stuff >> > But I will take survivability over rollability anytime. Peter brings up an interesting point. Various designers take different approaches as they strive to make their designs seaworthy and safe. A common feature for folding boats is to design in high stability which will offers protection via ease of handling as the paddle approaches exhaustion. This same high stability also works to keep the uninitiated somewhat safer than they would be in a more tender craft during early training. Narrow Greenland style boats (whatever that means) on the other had offer no such safe haven whether upright or inverted and offer nothing to the non-skilled paddler. But with a pilot that has the skills they do offer the ability to dance around in conditions that would prove quite challenging for large boats and they provide for the ability to self-right via the roll. For pilots of narrow boats these traits are what provide safety and "survival capability" by allowing the craft to negotiate more extreme conditions upright and paddling. Two different approaches yield two different designs based on two different safety models. I don't say that one is right and the other is wrong, the world is too complicated for such a simplistic approach. Each design brings with it it's own strengths and limitations. But let each paddler chose their craft and be proud of their choice. We are all the richer for the diversity that exists. Jed (Khatsalano owner wannabe) From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:32:02 EST Subject: [Paddlewise] Seaworthiness of (Folding) Kayaks Peter Rattenbury: > ... You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess > that's right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat > in capable hands is still a safe prospect at sea. And I have found > that at the end of the day, ie, six hours into a head wind and sea, I am > still there with the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most > fashionable, but still there. And I really appreciate the design's > seaworthiness, almost an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability > to sail, the ability to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking > in high wind/seas compared with some boats, and the r |
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2021-09-25 04:26:52
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Post #9
Re: 折叠艇历史讨论 保留转录 |
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kurtyang04
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PaddleWise Discussion on the (In)Stability of (Folding) Kayaks The following discussion occurred on the [email]PaddleWise\[/email] mailing list. All original comments are presented in their entirety. Some quoting of previous posts copied into subsequent replies are excluded from those replies to improve readability and reduce redundancy. Full archives may be retrieved by PaddleWise members from the PaddleWise digest by sending a message to addleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net">PaddleWise-digest-request@paddlewise.net with the word "index" included in the body of the message. These posts may not be reproduced or redistributed without the author's permission. Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 23:02:27 -0700 From: Ralph Diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stability of folding vs. hardshells Leander wrote: > > At 11:44 AM 09-04-99 -0700, Philip Torrens wrote: > > > >Okay, I can't express this in formal technical terms, but I think Ralph > may be right (upright?) in feeling that a sponsoned folding boat could be more > stable and self-righting than a hardshell of equal chine and beam. (I mostly use > hard shells so I'm not biased in favour of folding boats.) > The displacement of a hardshell is essentially static, changing only as the > entire boat moves. The sponsons of a folder, in contrast, are squeezed at the > bottom as they are pushed deeper into the water, and therefore expand into > greater width and stability in the higher parts. ...snipped... > > I long ago read an article on this very subject, complete with formulas, > but it basically said what you so eloquently and succinctly described. Though the > reference is long since lost, perhaps the design experts on the list, such as > John or Nick, know of it. Philip's and Leander's comments remind me of something interesting about the way a sponsoned folding kayak behaves when it has taken on a lot of water. If you turn that folding kayak on its side, it will rise on the sponson on that side and spill a lot of the water out, up to about the inside level of the sponson. (It is a neat way to begin partial emptying of a folding kayak that most people don't know about. The phenomenon is even more pronounced if you also have flotation bags fore and aft as you alway should in any folding kayak or non-bulheaded kayak.) If there were no different in the displacement effect between a hardshell and a folding kayak with sponsons, then this float-up phenomenon would also happen with a hardshell laid on its side. To my knowledge, the hardshell would not at all rise that way to spill out the water, only the sponsoned kayak would. That column of compressed air in the sponson is fighting its way to the surface. In a corollary way, it also resists being submerged. Philip's idea of a dynamic as opposed to static displacement certainly has a ring to it that shows itself in real life. There are so many ways of skinning a cat in the kayaking world. Some corners of this realm offer some unique advantages that some people don't seem to want to hear about or want to put outside the kingdom's gate as not worthy. For example, the earlier sit-on-top kayak discussion that I engendered that drew some flak. But let's face it, there ain't nothing easier to empty than an SOT nor much easier to get back into without pumps, paddle floats, re-enter and roll and all that. Also the middle range of SOTs are every bit as fast as the middle range of beamier hardshells made of polyethylene and are considerably stable. Performance kayaks require performance paddlers and a lot of people getting into kayaking are simply not going to work at getting and keeping the skills. Wouldn't these paddlers be better off with kayaks that are less skill reliant? ralph diaz -- Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 01:29:38 -0700 From: Dave Kruger Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stability of folding vs. hardshells Ralph, this is completely accurate to this point. The [emphasized] part of your next sentence (see below) describes an effect which is not physically possible until the inflated tube is **completely** submerged, thereby displacing a volume of water equal to the sponson's volume, giving a buoyant effect equal to the weight of the water displaced. Any restoring force, as Philip points out, which acts to right the kayak, *before* the sponson is *completely* surrounded with water (both inside and outside the yak), is due to the *form* of the outside of the yak, and can not be affected by what is inside the yak. OTOH, I think Philip may have correctly identified the source of the "feeling" you and he describe -- it is due to local deformation of the *outside* of the yak's surface, owing to the flexible character of the hull. > In a corollary way, **it also resists being submerged.** [emphasis added] > Philip's idea of a dynamic as opposed to static displacement certainly has > a ring to it that shows itself in real life. Yes. The *dynamic effect* could be genuine. The "resists being submerged" can not. I love my folding boat, but it can not violate principles of physics or buoyancy. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 08:37:34 -0700 From: [Ralph Diaz] Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling - folders stability John Winters wrote: >> Which bring me to something, John, that you said in your early posting, >> "Many paddlers achieve this result by packing their boats with waterproof >> bags along the interior sides of their rigid boats." I have never seen >> anyone do that in a hardshell. > > Perhaps this has to do with ignorance. I do this on my boats when I do not > have a sea sock or pod. I use a multitude of small gear bags. Some boats, > may lack enough beam for this kind of thing but foam sheathing glued to the > hull sides to reduce volume also works. Reducing the floodable volume in > the boat ios the objective. I doubt if most paddlers understand or consider > the effects of free surface in their boats. Most production boats don't > come with methods to attach side bags, sea socks, or pods and that seems to > me a serious omission. > I cannot say why builders of hardshells fail to recognize the importance of > flooded stability. As Ralph points out, all they need do is look at folders > to see them in use and apply the same principle. Well, as I pointed out, Bavaria does or did that (I haven't seen their kayaks in awhile). All it takes is to glass in some nylon twine or webbing straps every 2 feet or so along the sides inside the kayak. Sponsons than can be added for that desired effect. I found very interesting your comments the relative instability of bouyancy located at the ends of the boat and the free surface inside the cockpit. > > Please don't call internal buoyancy bags sponsons. Sponsons attach to the > outside of the boat. Buoyancy bags and tanks attach inside. I would love to and Webster's dictionary (and I am sure all naval architecture glossaries of terms do too) but sometimes things get called something and the label sticks and we just have to start using the term in the corrupted way. :-) But I do appreciate that there is a distinction...anything to get away from the infamy the term has gotten because of your fellow Canadian. I want to return to the question of stability of buoyancy aids in folding kayaks. And then I am going to leave it because no one seems to be applying any real science here other than general, unspecified references to Archimedes. What I have to say comes from observation, which has to count for something. Many years ago, long before the idea of doing anything with folding kayaks ever even entered my mind, I observed what happened with folding kayaks in two situations that I can only attribute to something to do with the buoyancy aids inside their soft skins. In the first one, I was on a group paddling trip. I was directly alongside a couple in a double Klepper, when the fellow decided to stand up (he later said he wanted to stretch his legs). He wasn't very well coordinated and he tipped the kayak over. I was about 30 feet directly to the side of his Klepper and all I saw was black bottom and keel strips including the ones on both chines, i.e. the kayak was almost completely on its side. He fell out and the kayak righted itself. The woman in the front had only paddled once before and hadn't the faintest idea of what a bracing stroke was...so it wasn't she that righted the kayak. The kayak wound up right side up with the woman having a stunned look on her face. I am not sure how another kayak, a non-buoyancy aided flexible skin one, would behave in similar circumstances. Another observation, again from my pre-evangelistic folding kayak days. I was paddling a double Klepper with my wife in our first months of kayaking experience. We went out through surf off of Brighton Beach in NYC. I was fiddling with a rudder lifter that I had added to the kayak (they lacked them then and it was the first thing that I ever innovated for the kayak that eventually got me interested in writing about this particular species of kayaks) and did not pay heed to what was happening with the waves coming in on us. The kayak completely broached, so much so that our kayaking friends on the beach with many years of kayaking and kayaking teaching experience fully expected our Klepper to windowshade all the way back to the beach. It didn't. While the wave side of the kayak rose way up and we were well over, something kicked in, without any bracing whatsoever by either of us...my wife didn't know how to brace and both my hands were on my rudder lifter line. Will folding kayaks flip? Of course they can and do. But it takes a lot, and my observation tells me that the bouyancy aids inside are kicking in at some point to some degree enough to say that the phenomenon does exist. ralph diaz -- Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:47:57 -0700 From: Kevin Whilden Subject: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) At 07:21 AM 9/12/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: > But the issue of rolling a folding kayak is almost academic. They are > not prone to tip and even a modicum of a brace will keep you upright in > absolutely insane waters, or just working like the devil to stay > centered in your boat will do. > Most folding kayaks have a low brace built into them. They all can tip > but they have to go pretty far over to do so. Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more stable or less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a little better and eliminate confusion. I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that some people on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a relative term, is it not? Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent whirlpool. Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose to float down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence. But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be more able to react with an insta-brace. In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary stability tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's surface. But if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a capsize is imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary stability boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride over it, and have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a folding kayak in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a drawback in terms of remaining upright? Thanks, Kevin Kevin Whilden Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:24:29 -0700 From: ralph diaz Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Kevin Whilden wrote: > > > Ralph, I think there is line between when folding kayaks are more stable or > less stable than narrow hardshell boats, which I would like to define a > little better and eliminate confusion. > > I am skeptical that folding kayaks are so stable in waters that some people > on this list would call "absolutely insane". This is definitely a relative > term, is it not? I really don't know an absolutely definitive answer to your question. Folding kayaks have been in far hairer waters than I would ever want to be and have done fine. Examples: In 1990, a fellow Joe Weight took a double from Grenada to Puerto Rico and got caught in a hurricane in about a 60 mile crossing toward the end and didn't capsize. The hurricane was insane enough but he regularly was in pretty insane stuff. Two guys took a double folding kayak from Sydney to Darwin some 3,000 plus miles along the rugged surf eastern shoreline of Australia. They capsized, I believe just once in some 100 days of paddling. Some of the waters they were in were absolutely insane by any definition. A lot of the staying upright for these guys and hundreds of other expeditioners was due as much to the stability of the boats as the skill of the paddlers. > Never having paddled a folding kayak in rough seas, I > cannot say for sure, but I have always thought that too much primary > stability increases the chance of capsize in big steep waves or really > nasty (by my metric) tide rips. For example, has anyone paddled a wide > folding kayak in the tide rip behind the surf wave at Skookumchuck? Now > that is what I call "insane waters" -- I have never seen a more confused > mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with an occasional deep violent whirlpool. > Even the hardcore whitewater crazies avoid that place, and choose to float > down a 1/4 mile (in rodeo boats) before trying to cross that eddy fence. Sounds ominous. I would not want to be in that stuff ever. Who would? > But if one were to find themselves in an eddy fence of that magnitude, I > would rather be in a narrow "tippy" boat with great secondary stability > than in wide "stable" boat with high primary stability. Then I would be > more able to react with an insta-brace. Greater secondary stability is only as useful as the paddler's ability to brace and use it constantly for long stretches of time. Again, it does sound like a challenging spot for any boat. I have no way of knowing how well a foldidng kayak would fair. I doubt that most kayakers in skinny tippy boats would do well either. It sounds like a place for our good friend, Superman Doug of BC! > > In a less extreme example, such as steep wind waves, high primary stability > tends to make the boat lie flat relative to the local water's surface. But > if that surface is nearly vertical (as in a steep wave), then a capsize is > imminent unless the paddler attempts an ill-advised down-wave brace (a > danger for shoulder dislocations). A low primary, high secondary stability > boat can just edge into the steep wave ever so slightly, ride over it, and > have no fear of capsize. Again, since I have never paddled a folding kayak > in rough water, at what point does the high initial stability become a > drawback in terms of remaining upright? It will at some point, definitely, be a drawback at about the point the boat was absolutely vertical on its side and would trip over its downside sponson. I know that many hardshell kayakers are getting good at getting their boats on their side and holding a good brace. But I have seen folding kayaks go over nearly that much and just right themselves. For example, it happened to me in my first months of paddling in my double foldable. I was going into surf near Coney Island. Fiddling with the rudder cord to drop it into the water, I let the boat get completly sideways to a pretty decent wave. We went over quite a bit, no bracing. I have no real idea of what degree of tilt we had but fellow experienced paddlers on the beach later said that they fully expected, from their own experience, that we would be windowshaded back toward the beach. Instead the boat righted itself. I finally got it pointed into the next wave which broke over our heads and came out the outer side soaked. There is no issue that a skinny boat in the hands of a very capable experienced paddler will do well in chaotic waters because of the superb bracing, sculling and rolling skills of the paddler using its secondary stability. But if you only have limited, less than superb skills when in such a tippy boat, the secondary stability will mean squat to you and you will capsize. In a folding kayak with its flex and stability, you can go into pretty insane stuff and the boat will help see you through. Don't get me wrong...folding kayaks can capsize and do. But in many instances in rough conditions, many paddlers have come back reporting that the boat saw them through without their doing much to keep upright much to their amazement. ralph diaz -- From: "Rob Cookson" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:00:53 -0700 Hi Kevin, Can you name one instance where two paddlers of like skill were out in rough water, one in a stable boat and one in a narrow boat, where the narrow boat remained upright and the stable boat capsized? Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 09:56:39 -0700 From: Kevin Whilden Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Hi Rob, You know something... I cannot name a situation like you describe. I also cannot name the converse either. It's weird, but I have never been on a sea kayak trip where someone has capsized unintentionally outside of the surf zone. It seems like I either paddle with people who are very skilled whitewater boaters, or in conditions that are very benign. I have capsized personally on solo trips, but that doesn't help either. But it sounds like you have an opinion on whether high initial stability can become a liability, so let's hear it! Kevin From: "Rob Cookson" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:35:09 -0700 Hello again Kevin and All, All I can offer is what I have observed over the years teaching and leading tours. My experience has been that with groups of paddlers with low to moderate skill levels, the boats of lower stability capsize first. (Though here's something funny for you, I only had one capsize in all of my tours this year and he was in a stable single Kayak, less than 20 'from shore in mirror calm conditions. He leaned WAYYYY over the side to look at his rudder and sploosh over he went.) I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert in a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the skinny boat capsize first. The first sea kayak I ever paddled in rough water was a Dirigo, remember those? 27.5" wide. I paddled the Dirigo in some pretty rough stuff and never capsized. I have also paddled my Dawn Treader in similar conditions and stayed upright, same same Nordkapp. I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem, it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage. As you and I know each other, I think you also know that my preference in personal boats leans towards skinny tippy little craft. Why? Because they are fun! If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might as well have some fun surfing before I go! Anyway, just things I've noticed. Cheers, Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin From: [John Winters] Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:23:19 -0400 Rob wrote (or was it Kevin?) : (SNIP) > > I guess there could be a point where too much stability becomes a problem, > it's just that I have never witnessed it. I have lead people in double > Folbots in conditions that I never would have taken them in in even > moderately beamy singles. Stability can be an advantage. > The point where form stability (wide and shallow vs narrow and deep) becomes a liability occurs in breaking beam seas. My web site has a rudimentary discussion of this and you can get the full lowdown in Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten factor". The form stability increases the capsizing moment in breaking seas and can overpower the ability of the paddler to counteract it. I would guess that most capsizes of folding boats occur during attention lapses. When paddling canoes (36" wide) in the open ocean I never once had even a mild concern. Mind, we had fairly heavy loads but the conditions reached the "impossible to make headway level". So long as one remains head on to seas, form stability does not cause many problems. For this reason, those relying upon form stability usually make use of drogues or sea anchors to keep the boat normal to seas. This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot better in these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers. John Winters From: "Rob Cookson" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:45:37 -0700 Hi John and All, > Rob wrote (or was it Kevin?) : It was me. Thought this might draw you out-always a good thing. > The point where form stability (wide and shallow vs narrow and deep) > becomes a liability occurs in breaking beam seas. My web site has a > rudimentary discussion of this and you can get the full lowdown > in Marchaj's "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten factor". The form stability > increases the capsizing moment in breaking seas and can overpower the > ability of the paddler to counteract it. I have no doubt that this holds true in theory. It is just that I have never witnessed it in kayaking. The only reason I mention it at all is I have heard members of the cult of the skinny boat tell new paddlers that a skinny tippy boat is much more seaworthy than one that is more stable. I just haven't seen a case where a kayaker was in a boat with such high form stability that they could not lean it far enough into a breaking wave to prevent capsize. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it. > I would guess that most capsizes of folding boats occur during attention > lapses. When paddling canoes (36" wide) in the open ocean I never once had > even a mild concern. Mind, we had fairly heavy loads but the conditions > reached the "impossible to make headway level". Attention lapse or worse yet-incorrect response to a given condition, e.g.. leaning away from the wave while doing a high air-brace. > This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot > better in these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers. Yup, that's all I'm saying. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:10:54 -0400 From: Steve Cramer Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rollinga K-lite) Rob Cookson wrote: > > If you said: "Rob we're going to drop you into this hurricane and we want > you to survive as long as you can, pick a boat." I would opt for a Godzilla > or an old Response, both stable and easy to roll and control. Hey I might > as well have some fun surfing before I go! Funny you would say that. I was out in an area of converging waves Sunday in my Godzilla. Talk about confused seas, waves were hitting me from literally every direction. A couple of times I was surfed straight away from the beach. Not big waves, but the clapotis was about eye height. The striking thing was, that boat is so stable I didn't need to brace or even edge much, even when a blindside wave broke right on my shoulder. Of course if you need to put it on edge, it's no problem to lay your ear in the water. Steve Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:14:25 -0600 From: "Shawn W. Baker" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks Kevin Whilden wrote: > I have never seen a more confused mixture of 2-3 foot high boils with > an occasional deep violent whirlpool. Even the hardcore whitewater > crazies avoid that place, Ralph Diaz wrote: > Sounds ominous. I would not want to be in that stuff ever. Who would? Some people call that fun! > But I have seen folding kayaks go over nearly that much and just right > themselves. I think it's easier in a narrower boat to regularly practice and "establish" that tipping point so you know exactly "where" the boat is, and how it is reacting to the water. In a very wide ("stable" boat, itis more difficult to establish that edge. If you're tilted way up on edge by an errant wave, you're trusting to the boat's secondary stability, but not quite sure when and where (and if!) it is going to kick in. I'm not knocking folding boats (never paddled one) but I have a harder time with beamy boats in confused seas than a narrower boat, but that's just my perception. Shawn Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:20:35 -0600 From: "Shawn W. Baker" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks Rob Cookson wrote: > I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert in > a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would > both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will > say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the > skinny boat capsize first. But would said expert in the stable boat or said expert in the tippy boat reach exhaustion first? Shawn And after typing that I realized it sounds a lot like the chicken/egg question. -- Shawn W. Baker From: [Ralph C. Hoehn] Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:04:43 EDT Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks "Shawn W. Baker" writes: > .. I think it's easier in a narrower boat to regularly practice and "establish" > that tipping point so you know exactly "where" the boat is, and how it is > reacting to the water. ... I'm not knocking folding boats (never paddled one) > but I have a harder time with beamy boats in confused seas than a narrower boat, > but that's just my perception. Shawn, that's exactly why, in commenting Ralph Diaz's earlier post, I suggested that bracing, sculling and rolling practice is a useful "circus act" even in a folding boat, to be practiced right alongside assisted and unassisted rescues, which is standard practice in the non-folding kayaking world. Ralph C. Hoehn From: "Rob Cookson" Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:46:16 -0700 Hi Shawn and All, > But would said expert in the stable boat or said expert in the tippy > boat reach exhaustion first? Ya got me Shawn. Too many variables for my small brain. Guess it all comes down to a my expert is better than your expert contest. I think the bottom line is find a boat that suits your needs and have fun. > Shawn > And after typing that I realized it sounds a lot like the chicken/egg > question. By the way... I think the good Doctor Inverbon knows the answer to the chicken and egg question. Perhaps his humble scribe could relay our burning curiosity to him. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:21:25 -0400 From: Gabriel L Romeu Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks I was in my rather narrow boat with a couple of people in those wider, stabler boats(a Romany and a Baja) having a conversation (stationary) on the Delaware river a couple of weeks ago, A rather large boat wake swept us up. my boat went up and down very vertically while theirs swaggered from side to side, I'm sure that they subconsciously compensated with weight shifts. I think dealing with this in rather turbulent waters for any length of time could be fatiguing, even more so in a boat with a firm initial stability. It seems that my boat has no primary stability and it requires very little effort to put and maintain a edge for a length of time. I am not fighting that primary stability. -- Gabriel L Romeu From: Peter Osman Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:00:37 +1100 Rob Cookson wrote: - > I would suggest that if you put one expert in a tippy boat and one expert > in a stable boat (both boats that the experts are familiar with) they would > both stay upright until the point of exhaustion and then capsize. I will > say that with two novices in the same situation I have always seen the > skinny boat capsize first. G'Day Rob, What you say is consistent with my experience. I'm a novice who paddles both a Klepper Aerius single and a skinny small cockpit boat called a Pittarak. Both are delightful. In 3 foot chop the Klepper gives an effortless ride, in the Pittarak when it is unloaded, the same chop requires me to exert a conscious level of knee lift and very occasional bracing. The Klepper has both good primary and secondary stability while the unloaded Pittarak has good secondary stability. I'm told that when loaded it has good primary stability as well. I can sometimes roll the Pittarak but not the Klepper and the Pittarak is faster. Larry Gray, The designer of the Pittarak, can roll both with no modifications to either, he is most definitely an expert. For extended trips off shore and at my present level of skill I would choose the Klepper. When I am more skilled and in the company of fast paddlers I will use the Pittarak. All the best, PeterO From: "John Winters" Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Instability of folding kayaks (was Re: Rolling a K-lite) Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:50:15 -0400 Rob wrote: > > I have no doubt that this holds true in theory. It is just that I have > never witnessed it in kayaking. The only reason I mention it at all is I > have heard members of the cult of the skinny boat tell new paddlers that a > skinny tippy boat is much more seaworthy than one that is more stable. I > just haven't seen a case where a kayaker was in a boat with such high form > stability that they could not lean it far enough into a breaking wave to > prevent capsize. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just haven't seen it. Most of the people who paddle in these conditions have a lot of skill (at least the ones who survive :-)) and I confess that I try to avoid such conditions as much as possible although avoidance does pose problems in the North Atlantic. To get an idea of the conditions try side surfing into a beach in plunging breakers. :-0 > Attention lapse or worse yet-incorrect response to a given condition, e.g.. > leaning away from the wave while doing a high air-brace. No doubt. You can find a good story about what happens in Hannes Lindemann's "Alone at Sea" . He capsized when his sea anchor line failed. Drifted sideways and capsized. Of course, this had nothing to do with a lack of skill. He was sleeping at the time I think. > > > This of course, does not mean that narrow boats work a whole lot > > better in these conditions except in the hands of skilled paddlers. > > Yup, that's all I'm saying. Yes, I think a lot of people leap to conclusions about what "is best" as universal rule when it really amounts to "what works best for me and what I do". So long as paddlers recognise the down side of a boat's stability characteristics and allow for it they can stay out of trouble. Low form stability boats require generally higher skill levels and more constant attention most of the time while high form stability boats can lull one into a false sense of security and require either a lot of attention in breaking seas or some other means of keeping the boat normal the the sea train. You pays your money and takes your choice. Cheers, John Winters From: [John Winters] Subject: [Paddlewise] Stability Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:25:26 -0400 I didn't have much time when I wrote my last post on this topic so left out a lot. Some of you may find this interesting Most articles about sea kayak stability have a diagram showing a wide kayak that heels to follow the slope of the wave and a narrow kayak that remains more upright. The text with the diagram usually suggests that the same stability that makes a boat feel comfortable in flat water contributes to capsizing in waves. Unfortunately this often misleads readers. The water molecules in a non breaking wave travel roughly in circular orbits around the center of the wave. This results in centrifugal force that, in conjunction with normal gravitational force produces an apparent gravitational force acting normal to the wave surface. Some call this the "local" gravity and I am indebted to Bruce Winterbon for the term "apparent gravity" which makes more sense to me. The combined forces cause the "shape" of the wave. A blindfolded paddler in a boat lying parallel to the wave will not sense any heeling moment (although they may sense some motion) even though the wave surface may have a significant slope. This causes a problem for paddlers. Even though they may sense no heel they perceive heel visually by observing the horizon. In response they heel the boat into the wave and in so doing actually create a capsizing moment where none existed. You can test this phenomenon best by observing a plumb bob against the horizon while sitting still in a life raft. I believe that this phenomenon may have contributed to capsizes caused by what some researchers called "kayak angst" suffered by Inuit who paddled for long periods of time. The paddler would sense heel visually, correct against the apparent gravity and capsize. No doubt modern paddlers could have the same problem. Once the wave breaks, the situation alters as the rotational motion of the water molecules changes to translational motion which can cause a capsizing moment proportional to the righting arm of the boat. Note the term righting arm rather than righting moment. Righting moment is the product of the righting arm and displacement and acts to orient the boat to the surface. The righting arm is a function of the boat's shape and center of gravity without consideration for displacement. Of two boats with the same righting arm, the heavier will have more stability or righting moment. This difference between righting arm and righting moment leads to another interesting and sometimes confusing aspect of stability. Due to the centrifugal force, the apparent gravitational force varies with location on the wave. For example, the apparent gravitational force on the trough exceeds that of the force at the crest. Ocean sailors may have some familiarity with this for boats heel more on the crests than in the troughs (more than the variable wind force causes). I have read some suggestions that, given a large enough and steep enough wave, that the centrifugal force could counteract all gravitational force resulting in no righting moment even while fully upright. This explains the greater capsize vulnerability of boats in breaking beam seas and why a strong brace becomes such a useful weapon in avoiding capsize for any boat. So, returning to my earlier comment about the diagrams in magazines etc., a more appropriate diagram would show the two boats in breaking seas not smooth seas and the explanation should point out that the increased capsize moment only applies to breaking seas and/or confusion resulting from horizon and apparent gravity providing confusing signals to the paddler about her orientation. John Winters |
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